The Healing Power of EFT
Katie (She/Her)
00:00:01.600 – 00:00:34.450
And I just think EfT embraces all of that. It’s like we’re mindful, we’re very present with our body, we’re very non judgmental, we’re compassionate.
We’re saying, yeah, we see you, we can hear you, we get it. Sometimes in the sessions, I say thank you for showing up, even though it’s really uncomfortable.
It’s almost like you thank that part for having the courage to show up and trying to express what it’s needing for you. And I just think that’s so healing. It calms your nervous system.
And once your nervous system’s calmed, you can then start to process the trauma or what’s stuck.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:00:40.990 – 00:00:54.768
Welcome to the Good Enough Counsellors podcast, where today I’m delighted to be interviewing Katie Bowers. Katie and I go a long way back. We first met when we were studying for our level three in counselling in I think, 2007.
Katie (She/Her)
00:00:54.894 – 00:00:57.844
Yeah, that’s probably right. Yeah, a long time ago.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:00:57.932 – 00:01:39.408
Yeah. We then studied our diploma together and we spent long hours chatting as we shared our drive to and from our joint placement over a few years.
And we still meet up every month for lunch. And I guarantee one of us normally cries. We usually take it in turns. Yes, there’s nothing like having a friend who knows you well.
So I’ve invited Katie on the show today because Katie’s career has taken a different course to the traditional private practice route. And yet, Katie is passionate about the therapy she offers and has so much to share. I’d love you to hear how she’s done it. So welcome, Katie.
Katie (She/Her)
00:01:39.504 – 00:01:42.020
Oh, thank you, Jo. It’s so lovely talking to you.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:01:42.800 – 00:01:44.160
We always enjoy it, don’t we?
Katie (She/Her)
00:01:44.200 – 00:01:45.672
We absolutely do.
Katie’s Journey into Counseling
Josephine (She/Her)
00:01:45.856 – 00:02:03.610
Just have to be careful to keep the podcast short as opposed to one of our marathon chats that we normally have. So I’m going to start at the beginning, Katie, because I’m sort of like.
Because I know you quite well, I think this might help to sort of tell your story a little bit. So can you tell me what made you want to study counseling?
Katie (She/Her)
00:02:04.110 – 00:02:16.118
Yeah, that’s really easy. I was brought up in a household where you couldn’t talk about anything and brush it all under the carpet.
And I just got to the point where I realized I needed to talk about it.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:02:16.174 – 00:02:16.454
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:02:16.502 – 00:02:33.296
So I thought, and someone told me, oh, I. I found this course that you might like and it’s about counselling.
So I thought, oh, okay, if someone tells me I have to do 30 hours of counselling to qualify, then it’s like, I’m not breaking the family rules. I basically did it to work on my own stuff.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:02:33.408 – 00:02:39.488
Yeah, yeah. And how effective did you find the help that you had back at that stage?
Katie (She/Her)
00:02:39.664 – 00:03:11.170
Yeah, I personally didn’t find the actual counselling very helpful. For me personally. I would notice I got triggered in the sessions sometimes. Like, I’d freeze. It was like.
It’s like I could see on the counselor’s face that, well, the answer’s obvious, you know, like. And there’d be this long silence and I’d just go more and more into freeze and not have a clue how to answer it.
And from that place, my brain had just stopped working, so I couldn’t do anything from that place. Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:03:12.070 – 00:03:23.944
So it sort of felt like when the counselor was with you that they were sort of asking you questions and that somehow there was some sort of answer that you should be able to come up with. And that pressure just made you feel.
Katie (She/Her)
00:03:24.072 – 00:03:24.424
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:03:24.472 – 00:03:26.488
Like, oh, I don’t know what to say.
Katie (She/Her)
00:03:26.624 – 00:03:48.930
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I remember one time she was saying, oh, it’s like scales, you know, you doing this extreme or that extreme, and where’s the middle?
I don’t know where the middle is. And it was. I just felt like, yes. So stunning. And, yeah, my brain just went to mush in the session and, yeah, so I really struggled. I kept going.
I really did. I kept trying.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:03:50.790 – 00:04:19.736
That is one of the things that I think is very noticeable about you, that once you’re committed to doing something, you really do do it sort of heart and soul. Katie’s a marathon runner. She’s run lots of marathons. And this is when you’ve got something to work towards you usually. You do really work at it.
So, you know, I think you probably treated your counseling as the same thing. You know, I’m here, I’m going to do it. And really tried, but it just didn’t really work out for you, did it?
Katie (She/Her)
00:04:19.768 – 00:04:28.240
No. And I think because I don’t think it was really known much about trauma in the nervous system then.
I don’t remember really being taught much about that.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:04:28.280 – 00:04:29.192
I don’t think so.
Katie (She/Her)
00:04:29.296 – 00:04:38.330
So I think there’s huge learning since, but, yeah, it just. I think I kept getting triggered in sessions and that’s. You cannot progress from that place at all.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:04:38.410 – 00:04:43.322
Yeah, yeah. You just keep getting this sort of trauma, just resurfacing all the time.
Katie (She/Her)
00:04:43.466 – 00:04:52.442
So I got frustrated. I kept thinking, well, like, what’s wrong with me?
You know, there must be something wrong with me because it sounds like it’s working for everyone else. It was frustrating.
Transitioning from Traditional Counselling to EFT
Josephine (She/Her)
00:04:52.546 – 00:05:12.934
Yeah. So if we move on a little bit. So, you know, obviously we did our counselling placements together, didn’t we?
We both did similar placements in that we worked with children and we worked with women in refuges. And then what happened once we’d finished the diploma, how did the counselling carry on? Did you carry on?
Katie (She/Her)
00:05:13.022 – 00:05:59.660
I.
So I convinced myself, and I now realize it was just a belief that I thought, oh, no, I’ll get the best experience if I continue in the women’s refuge. And I want to have the more challenging clients. I’ll learn so much from that.
And so I put off setting up my own private practice where everyone else was doing it around me. But actually it was fear. I just. Now I realize I just didn’t believe in myself enough to do it.
And I had managed to convince myself I was going down a certain route, but it didn’t work out naturally. I think I got a bit burnt out working with the women because I didn’t have the tools to deal with the trauma side of things.
So, like, a couple of years into it or something, a dear friend died of cancer quite suddenly.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:05:59.700 – 00:06:00.236
Oh, yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:06:00.308 – 00:06:10.644
And so for ethical reasons, I thought, I’m going to pause. But actually, during that pause, I reflected and I thought, this isn’t quite working for me. The pause ended up as a stop. Really?
Josephine (She/Her)
00:06:10.732 – 00:06:13.388
Yeah. Yeah. How long did that last for, do you think?
Katie (She/Her)
00:06:13.484 – 00:06:15.356
Maybe eight years or so. Oh, really?
Josephine (She/Her)
00:06:15.428 – 00:06:17.996
I was going to say five, but, yeah, it was a while, wasn’t it?
Katie (She/Her)
00:06:18.028 – 00:06:29.784
But the whole time I kept reading books, I kept trying to do courses and, like, we would swap book ideas. And I remember asking you, right, I understand the triangle. The. You know, the.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:06:29.892 – 00:06:31.040
I was drawing a triangle.
Katie (She/Her)
00:06:31.120 – 00:06:41.056
Yeah, but what’s the answer to that? You know? And, you know, give me the Ted book suggestion. And so I’d read that and, like, why am I not shifting? I’ll try and keep working on myself.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:06:41.208 – 00:06:56.300
So let’s fast forward, because this is where we come to the really sort of like, who you are and what you’re doing now, because I think it’s really. This is so. It just dovetails really nicely, doesn’t it? So let’s fast forward. What’s made the difference and what are you doing? Doing now?
Katie (She/Her)
00:06:56.460 – 00:07:06.124
So, a dear friend of mine, oh, I think that was you, said to me, have you tried tapping? Eft tapping. And at first, I’ll be honest with you, I thought, that’s a bit weird.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:07:06.212 – 00:07:10.132
It is a bit. It is. When you first hear about it, you do think, that’s a bit weird. Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:07:10.236 – 00:07:19.076
And I thought, well, how on earth is that going to help me? But then I think on several occasions you mentioned it and I thought, okay, I’m going to read up about it, as I always do.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:07:19.148 – 00:07:19.492
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:07:19.556 – 00:07:26.308
And I think I did a udemy course on it or something. And then I think by the time I next met you, I’d booked a course.
Discovering EFT and Its Impact
Josephine (She/Her)
00:07:26.404 – 00:07:53.520
That’s right. I was blown away because I’d sort of mentioned it to you because I was sort of thinking about.
And I still haven’t done any training in it because I was sort of thinking, oh, it might be quite useful to add that I could use it with working with my coaching clients. And I sort of mentioned it to you. The next thing I knew, you said, I booked onto a five day course and I was like, what beat me to it?
So tell me a bit about that and what it was like.
Katie (She/Her)
00:07:53.700 – 00:08:26.616
So, yes, it was in Solihull and it was with Carl Dawson, he’s one of the master trainers, one of the original ones from Gary Craig. And it was. You reached level two as an EFT practitioner and then there were two days added on for Matrix three and printing, which is his own style.
Yeah, it was. It was quite an emotional five days, I’m not going to lie. And so I’m not sure how much went in. I knew I came away absolutely loving it.
I felt some shifts and that I’d never experienced before.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:08:26.728 – 00:08:38.208
Yeah. Because he actually. You were really brave, weren’t you? And you volunteered to be somebody who he sort of like practiced on or demonstrated.
You were the sort of, you know, the guinea pig, weren’t you?
Katie (She/Her)
00:08:38.264 – 00:08:51.850
Yes. Yes. Which for me, and not wanting much attention, was nerve wracking enough, but then to tap on that and to release some stuff that actually.
So we went to an event that I think was about five at school.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:08:51.970 – 00:08:52.362
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:08:52.426 – 00:09:10.450
It’s an event I’ve kept going back to that’s actually caused a lot of impact in my life, really. He went through the story technique and movie technique. It was very effective. It was amazing.
And actually, during it, my body started to shake, like to release the trauma.
Understanding EFT: Mechanisms and Benefits
Josephine (She/Her)
00:09:10.570 – 00:09:22.920
Yeah, yeah, I. Yeah.
So could you tell us a bit more about it for the people who don’t know, a little bit more about how EFT works and why it’s effective with trauma.
Katie (She/Her)
00:09:23.080 – 00:09:54.052
Yeah. So Eft is where you focus on the issue.
It could be a body issue, like a backache, or it could be a thought or it could be an emotion, and while you’re focusing on that issue, you tap on the meridian points. And the idea is that it sends a signal to your brain to calm your nervous system down.
And from that calm place, you are then able to make a choice as to how you want to proceed as opposed to react from fear.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:09:54.156 – 00:10:12.638
Yeah. So presumably there’s something around, because we’ve got that sort of prefrontal cortex, haven’t we? And we’ve got an amygdala.
And a lot of the time, if we’re triggered, we’re coming from that amygdala. And somehow tapping helps you to come from that calm place as opposed to that sort of scared, traumatized place, because.
Katie (She/Her)
00:10:12.694 – 00:10:38.822
You can’t process anything from a traumatized place. Or it doesn’t even have to be traumatized. It could just be, say, someone cuts you up in this driving and you suddenly go, oh, gosh, that knocked me.
And so in that moment, you’re in a bit of fight, flight, possibly freeze, and, you know, so that you get in there quite cortisol rushing through you, the stress hormone, and you can’t think rationally, you can’t make a sensible decision from that place.
Real-Life Applications of EFT
Josephine (She/Her)
00:10:38.886 – 00:10:52.334
Yeah. Yeah. So I was just saying to you before we started that I watched your little video yesterday about when you lost your credit card.
So would you like to tell people that story? Because I think it’s a really great illustration of how EFT has actually helped you.
Katie (She/Her)
00:10:52.422 – 00:12:20.100
Yeah, absolutely.
So, due to my childhood life and then my first marriage, I got very anxious around shouty people and criticism, and I would get really anxious if I was late home or had done anything wrong. And so when I discovered on the dog walk the other day that I. My card wasn’t there initially, just for a split second, my heart went.
And then all of a sudden, I just noticed it completely calmed down. And it was just the most amazing feeling. It was like, oh, my word, this is what EFT has done for me.
It’s helped me calm myself down in this normal triggering, what would normally trigger me. And in that moment, then I had the clarity to look around and cancel my card on my app.
And then as I was walking back to the car with Bella, my dog, I started to think, oh, I’ve got to now tell my husband and say, oh, you know, I’ve lost my card. And I could feel my heart going a little bit. So I thought, okay, I’ll just tap on that.
So I tapped on the way back to the car, and by the time I got home, I was absolutely.
I just said really calmly and just very gently, like, oh, just to let you know, I’ve happened to have lost my car, but it’s okay, you know, I’ve cancelled it and it’s all fine. I’ve done everything I can fine. You know, did a normal response because my brain’s still in the past, you know.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:12:20.180 – 00:12:40.748
Yeah. You’re expecting that, fearing what you’ve experienced in the past, but somehow it’s resolved.
I don’t know if you’d be open to telling us this, but I remember you telling me about a time where you’d been in a car with your previous husband and he’d driven quite aggressively, I think.
Katie (She/Her)
00:12:40.844 – 00:12:41.402
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:12:41.516 – 00:12:52.158
And you took that to eft, didn’t you? I don’t know if that was a matrix imprinting or the movie or.
Can you tell us a bit about sort of, do you feel okay to tell us about that and what it was like?
Katie (She/Her)
00:12:52.254 – 00:13:11.010
So, yes, we had my ex and I used to play tennis. I think I normally avoided partnering him, but I don’t think I could avoid it this particular time. And I’d obviously done something wrong.
We’d lost the match and it was all my fault, basically. And in the car home, he was very angry and ranting.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:13:11.130 – 00:13:11.594
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:13:11.682 – 00:14:50.372
And as we come out of the tennis club, we go under a railway bridge. And it was like he was accelerating towards the. Towards the edge of the bridge.
And, of course, it was the passenger side where I was sitting that would have felt like it would have gone into the side of the bridge. So in that moment, I genuinely was terrified. I thought he was going to crash the car.
So, yes, I took this to a session, you know, my EFT sessions, and we did matrix re imprinting on this. And so matrix re imprinting is where you go and speak to your younger version.
You actually tap with her and you sort of get her safe out of the situation. Freeze everything. Like, you’ve got this remote control type thing.
You just freeze everything, make them feel safe, and then you just tap with them and say, how are you feeling right now? And you tap down their nervous system and also, obviously, yours.
And then basically, just as everything’s coming up from their fears, their beliefs in the moment and all those sort of things. Things, and just say, okay, what do you want to resource yourself now? That sort of thing. And you resource that person to help.
So in that instance, it’s like I could practice to say, no, don’t do this to me, or something, you know, whatever I needed to do in that moment, you know? And it’s almost like you’re practicing having the courage to say what you wish you’d done or said or whatever like that. And that’s so resourceful.
And even though you could say, well, it’s not true, it didn’t happen. Yes, that’s okay. But the point is, and I’ve learned this through matrix or imprinting that.
First of all, if you say, yeah, that didn’t happen, though, okay, so what’s the fear there? So you tap down all the resistance of changes, of improving. Does that make sense?
Josephine (She/Her)
00:14:50.436 – 00:14:51.040
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:14:52.180 – 00:15:10.982
And that’s brilliant, because it then creates another aspect of the issue that you can tap down. So the idea of tapping is to tap down all the aspects, all the trigger points.
And so the more you can test it and find, okay, so what’s stopping you doing that? What’s getting in the way? And then tap everything that comes up.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:15:11.086 – 00:15:30.232
Yeah. Yeah.
So it sort of helped you to almost be compassionate towards that younger self who was so scared, and help her to know that in that moment she was sort of okay, that. That she could have chosen if she’d needed to, would that be right to.
Katie (She/Her)
00:15:30.256 – 00:16:06.714
Say, yes, and, yeah, totally. And that she did get through it. You can reassure she does get through this, it’s okay.
And that it’s almost like you’re saying, I’m with you now, you’re not alone, because that’s quite a crucial element sometimes as well. Yeah, and yes, absolutely. Giving them compassion, saying, yes, this is awful.
You shouldn’t be going through this and just acknowledging all that’s going on for them because that’s so often denied, isn’t it? Even we denied for ourselves, even. So, just to acknowledge to that younger version of yourself, yeah, this is awful.
You shouldn’t be experiencing this. I’m here with you now, supporting you.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:16:06.762 – 00:16:28.100
And it’s you, your older self that’s there with the younger self, and it’s sort of like almost that inner strengthen that is sort of within all of us. But so often we lose sight of it, don’t we?
I think it sounds like you’re reconnecting to that true self, maybe, if there is such a thing, but, yeah, but.
Katie (She/Her)
00:16:28.140 – 00:16:46.662
Also the resourceful self that got stuck at that point in time.
And it’s just like, it’s a way of reminding you that you are actually a resourceful person and that you have got all these skills and it’s almost like unfreezing you in that moment. Proper English, necessarily, but you know what I mean.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:16:46.766 – 00:16:51.358
Yeah, that’s what I picked up just then, that self that was so it’s almost sort of like you’ve got stuck.
Katie (She/Her)
00:16:51.454 – 00:16:52.126
Yes.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:16:52.278 – 00:16:55.734
And the tapping helps to just release that stuck person.
Katie (She/Her)
00:16:55.862 – 00:17:00.150
Yes. And carry on the story then. But you carry it on in the way that’s more healing.
Building Confidence Through EFT
Josephine (She/Her)
00:17:00.230 – 00:17:17.274
Yeah.
And I think that that really brings me on to sort of something that I wanted to ask you about, because sort of having, having known you over all this time, I know that sort of starting up in your own practice was like a really big. Like you said. You said there was fear.
Katie (She/Her)
00:17:17.402 – 00:17:19.190
Yes, huge fear.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:17:19.570 – 00:17:33.546
So it sounds. I mean, I’ve seen a huge change in you since you’ve gone on this journey of eft and tell us what you’ve done since. So you’ve did the course.
Tell us what happened.
Katie (She/Her)
00:17:33.618 – 00:18:32.124
So then I came back from the course and I think everyone thought I was a bit loopy because I was just buzzing. I don’t think they’d see me quite like. Like that since, you know, I just thought, you know what? I need to work on myself.
I’m going to go and get some support and help. And so I didn’t feel I was in the right place to support clients at that point.
And I thought, right, I’m going to have the evidence myself by working through my own stuff.
So for a year, I worked on my own stuff, and then gradually I started bit by bit, because I remember every time I’d say, if he’s gonna start business, and, no, not yet. And I just, you know, it was like, I’m too scared. I’m too scared.
And so I just kept tapping through all of that, everything that would come up, oh, I don’t want to go on social media. You know, I absolutely hated social media. You know, that’s what I convinced myself of. But actually, I’ve worked through that now.
I’ve completely tapped through that.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:18:32.172 – 00:18:58.750
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I’d love to touch on that, actually, because I can remember, you know, you going on Facebook when your family first went on Facebook, just to sort of keep an eye on what was happening, didn’t you? You weren’t active on Facebook at all. You just had an account, didn’t you? Just to keep an eye on things.
And you went from somebody who didn’t do any sort of social media to now you do a real everyday, don’t you? Virtually, I think.
Katie (She/Her)
00:18:58.830 – 00:18:59.950
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:19:00.030 – 00:19:16.864
So how did that happen?
How did you move from that person who just didn’t hated social media to now someone who comes across, certainly is confident and sharing stuff on social media? And I think you’ve now opened a Facebook group up. Before we move on, tell us what the name of the Facebook group is.
Katie (She/Her)
00:19:16.992 – 00:19:18.256
Mum’s seeking more.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:19:18.328 – 00:19:31.752
Mum’s seeking more. We’ll come back to it. But, yeah, so tell us about.
So you’ve gone from completely silent on Facebook to opening a Facebook group, running, doing reels on Instagram every day. Tell us how that happened. How did you manage it?
Katie (She/Her)
00:19:31.856 – 00:20:24.832
So I guess I was frustrated with myself that I wasn’t. I knew that was the way forward to promote my business. And I just kept thinking, it’s almost like I’d ask myself, okay, what is stopping me?
And I think, oh, goodness, you know, people are going to judge me, so, right, I’ll tap on people gonna judge me. Then I think, okay, what else is stopping me? Oh, you know, people might think I’m talking absolutely nonsense. Okay, let’s tap on that, then.
So I just. I kept asking myself, what’s stopping me? Or it might not even be worse. It might be, oh, my chest feels so tight right now. So I’d tap on that.
I just tried to work through all the different aspects of what was holding me back, all my beliefs that were keeping me small, like, I’m not good enough. I, like, what on earth have I got to contribute to the world? All those things, you know? And I just.
It’s almost like I just ticked them all off the list.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:20:24.936 – 00:20:28.080
Yeah, yeah. And gradually sort of gained more confidence.
Katie (She/Her)
00:20:28.240 – 00:20:46.020
And then, like, I remember my very first video was in my vegetable plot. I set the camera up, and I think it was something to do with. A family member had just phoned me. I was worrying about something.
I said, oh, I could do a video on this. So I did it, and I was shaking after, so I kept tapping.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:20:46.520 – 00:20:47.176
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:20:47.288 – 00:21:02.280
And so at every opportunity, I just, like, when the emotion arises, I just tap on it just to release it. And then whatever next arises, I then tap on that. You know, it’s like, yeah, yeah. Progression.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:21:02.400 – 00:21:05.952
Yeah. So how much sort of time would you say you spent sort of tapping?
Katie (She/Her)
00:21:06.096 – 00:21:10.064
Oh, I don’t. I do. You know, I even find myself tapping even when I don’t.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:21:10.232 – 00:21:12.120
It’s become so habitual now.
Katie (She/Her)
00:21:12.240 – 00:21:30.868
Yeah. Because it’s. I’ll tap on a dog walk. I’ll just tap all the time. Like, any time a thought comes in my head, I’ll just suddenly find.
Oh, yeah, I’m tapping on that. I just find it so helpful in the moment is like, when you’re actually feeling it, that’s the perfect time to release it.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:21:30.924 – 00:21:47.124
Yeah. So will you sort of, like.
Because obviously we talked about the meridian points, which is sort of like eyebrows around the eyes and under the nose, chin, collarbone under the arm, isn’t it? On top of the head. Will you go through all of those places if you’re tapping? Or do you just sort of tend to tap on you, say, your collarbones?
Katie (She/Her)
00:21:47.292 – 00:22:13.176
Well, depends where I am. So if I’m in private, I’ll do all the tapping points, but if I’m out, like on a dog walk, I’ll just.
There’s these finger points, these points on your finger where it’s the side of your. Where your nail and your skin meets, sort of thing. And you just gently tap on each finger.
And you could do it like if you’re at a dinner at a restaurant and you’re feeling a bit anxious, you could tap under the table. Nobody would know.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:22:13.248 – 00:22:14.056
Yeah, yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:22:14.088 – 00:22:21.380
So you can tap down the anxiety or wherever you are. So, you know, I’m more discreet when I’m out and about.
Working with Clients: Focus on Mums
Josephine (She/Her)
00:22:21.680 – 00:22:27.292
Yeah, yeah. So I know you’ve started working with clients now, haven’t you?
Katie (She/Her)
00:22:27.396 – 00:22:27.940
Yes.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:22:28.060 – 00:22:32.588
You’ve done quite a lot of sort of practice with other people as well, haven’t you?
Katie (She/Her)
00:22:32.644 – 00:22:34.052
Yes, I did an awful lot of swaps.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:22:34.116 – 00:22:38.004
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So where you. You’ll work with another eft therapist and.
Katie (She/Her)
00:22:38.052 – 00:22:38.420
Yes.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:22:38.500 – 00:22:47.748
Yeah, yeah. And what sort of things do you like to work with in terms of the, you know, the types of clients that you work with?
Katie (She/Her)
00:22:47.844 – 00:23:02.546
Yeah, I really like working with mums who are struggling with their, what I call emotional rucksack and it’s where, you know, your beliefs and your thoughts are holding you back from being your best self.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:23:02.618 – 00:23:03.194
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:23:03.322 – 00:23:28.332
And like, certainly for me, when her kids had gone to university, when they were growing up and not needing you as much and you suddenly think, ah, what’s next for me?
You know, I’ve got this whole next chapter looming and I feel bitde, you know, I personally suddenly realized, oh, you know, my lack of confidence and didn’t believe in my skill set and all those sorts of things. And so I can really relate to other mums that are maybe thinking the same sort of things.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:23:28.396 – 00:23:31.004
Yeah. Hence the Facebook group mums seeking more.
Katie (She/Her)
00:23:31.052 – 00:23:34.204
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hopefully a supportive group for that.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:23:34.252 – 00:23:46.894
Yeah, yeah. Sort of reaching out and helping women who’ve maybe reached that, that stage of their lives where they know there’s more but they don’t know how to.
To get there because they’re being held back by their beliefs.
Katie (She/Her)
00:23:46.982 – 00:23:48.318
Yeah, yeah.
EFT vs Traditional Counselling
Josephine (She/Her)
00:23:48.494 – 00:23:55.374
So if we go back, we just sort of wind it back. Actually, I was just thinking about the. What you said about traditional counseling.
Katie (She/Her)
00:23:55.462 – 00:23:55.798
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:23:55.854 – 00:24:07.730
Because you felt that you were sort of like, asked a question and then you froze. So why do. What is it about EFT that’s better for you, do you think, than the traditional counseling?
Katie (She/Her)
00:24:08.030 – 00:24:33.316
So for me, the first. The thing I think so effective about EFT is that it’s somatic and it includes mindfulness as well.
And actually, I was listening to this, I don’t know how to pronounce it, Nic abam or something. N I C A B M.
There was this treating trauma master series a few weeks ago that I was listening to and they actually said that, you know, it’s about addressing your thoughts, emotions, beliefs and your body.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:24:33.428 – 00:24:34.028
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:24:34.124 – 00:25:12.302
And I just think EfT embraces all of that. It’s like we’re mindful, we’re very present with our body. We’re saying we’re very non judgmental, we’re compassionate.
We’re saying, yeah, we see you, we can hear you, we get it. And it’s almost like sometimes in the sessions, I say, thank you for showing up, even though it’s really uncomfortable.
It’s almost like you thank that part for having the courage to show up and trying to express what it’s needing for you. And I just think that’s so healing.
It calms your nervous system, and once your nervous system’s calmed, you can then start to process the trauma or what’s stuck.
The Science Behind EFT
Josephine (She/Her)
00:25:12.406 – 00:25:16.790
So it’s sort of like releasing it through the body.
Katie (She/Her)
00:25:16.950 – 00:25:27.230
Yes. Yeah. It’s like these meridians, and actually, they’ve been proven scientifically. I don’t know whether you knew this.
They’ve injected some dye into the meridians and then shown it on MRI scans.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:25:27.310 – 00:25:27.838
Oh, really?
Katie (She/Her)
00:25:27.934 – 00:25:35.738
Yeah, yeah. I mean, previously, people thought it was all very woo woo, but actually it’s really. They’ve proven it exists, so it’s amazing.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:25:35.834 – 00:25:44.898
Yeah.
I was going to say, because I know, talking to Claire, who’s my EFT therapist, that she said it’s been really effective around eating disorders as well. Is that right?
Katie (She/Her)
00:25:44.954 – 00:25:46.970
Yeah, totally. And PTSD.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:25:47.090 – 00:25:47.610
Right.
Katie (She/Her)
00:25:47.730 – 00:26:12.660
I mean, it’s absolutely amazing for all sorts of things. You know, it can be for trauma where you can calm your nervous system a bit like me and my debit cardinal.
You really can’t do a lot until you’ve calmed your nervous system down to be able to think clearly.
But then on the other scale of things, you know, say someone cuts you up in the traffic jam, you can tap on that and release that so that you don’t go and shout at your loved ones or something.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:26:14.240 – 00:26:15.440
It gives me a road rage.
Katie (She/Her)
00:26:15.520 – 00:26:20.280
Yeah. It’s so effective for so many things.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:26:20.360 – 00:26:29.440
Yeah. Yeah.
Because effectively it’s just dealing with that part of ourselves that gets triggered or the different parts of ourselves that get triggered by things.
Katie (She/Her)
00:26:29.560 – 00:26:54.742
And
the other thing is, so for me, I get migraines if I’ve had a stressful period and I haven’t really attended to my. If I’ve not necessarily paid attention, then the tension will build up and all of a sudden my body will shout at me, alert, alert. You’ve got to stop.
You’ve got to attend to this and say, that’ll be a migraine for me. And I think, uh oh, I haven’t tapped enough. Oh, really? Yeah. So, you know, like, your body tells you what it needs.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:26:54.846 – 00:26:57.574
Yeah. So do you find it effective for helping you with migraines?
Katie (She/Her)
00:26:57.662 – 00:27:09.126
For me, I can’t tap. It’s too. It depends how intense the migraine is.
So what you can do is you can press gently touch the meridian points as opposed to tapping, because that can be over stimulating if you’ve got a migraine.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:27:09.198 – 00:27:09.622
Right.
Katie (She/Her)
00:27:09.726 – 00:27:23.512
So you can just touch on the meridian points and focus, or you can do a lovely thing like tap and breathe, where you just tap on each meridian point and breathe in and out. And so things like that can be helpful. Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:27:23.656 – 00:27:38.456
Yeah. That’s really interesting. Yeah. Because I was just thinking, because yesterday I was. I just felt really. Just not good.
You know, I was tired, I felt a bit sick, a bit headachy, you know, recovering from late nights and coming back from holiday and stuff like that.
Katie (She/Her)
00:27:38.528 – 00:27:38.776
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:27:38.808 – 00:27:40.552
So do you think it would have helped with something like that?
Katie (She/Her)
00:27:40.616 – 00:27:46.586
Oh, absolutely, yeah. Yeah. If I, if that had been me, I’d have maybe tapped on each symptom.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:27:46.698 – 00:27:47.314
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:27:47.442 – 00:27:56.658
And, and sometimes I even ask it. Okay, if you could talk to me right now, what would you, what would you say? I need. What, what is, what is it you’re trying to tell me?
Josephine (She/Her)
00:27:56.714 – 00:27:57.178
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:27:57.274 – 00:28:17.666
And it’s incredible, actually. All of a sudden, like, ping. A thought will come in my head.
And I think, like today I was tapping and I said, oh, I’ve got this feeling in my heart, but I have no words that go with it. And then you just started tapping. You started there tapping on this feeling and then I was, oh, yeah, I know what that’s about.
It just suddenly came up.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:28:17.738 – 00:28:18.634
Yeah. Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:28:18.682 – 00:28:21.626
So then it takes you down the road of where you need to work on.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:28:21.698 – 00:28:30.682
Yeah. That’s really interesting.
So I had someone who contacted me recently, actually, because I said, you know how some people talk about, like, the inner critic. And they can hear a voice in their head.
Katie (She/Her)
00:28:30.746 – 00:28:31.706
Yes. Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:28:31.778 – 00:29:16.240
And someone contacted me after one of my last podcasts where I’d said, I don’t really have like a. It’s not as though I can hear a voice sort of saying, oh, you’re rubbish, you’re not good enough.
I just get a feeling, you know, and it’s a feeling maybe of heaviness. And quite often, if I think about it, I can think back to when that feeling started.
And then I realized that I had a bit of comparison or something that triggered that not good enough feeling. But what this lady said to me, who got in touch was, oh, thank goodness that someone else has said, I don’t hear it as a voice.
She said, I just have a feeling, feeling. And I think this is part of what eft is really good at, isn’t it? That it helps you almost put feelings into words.
Katie (She/Her)
00:29:16.400 – 00:29:26.712
Yes, yes. And it could be a visual, even. Like sometimes I just get a visual of a scene and I like when I was feeling that feeling.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:29:26.776 – 00:29:27.464
Oh, really?
Katie (She/Her)
00:29:27.592 – 00:29:31.152
Yeah. So it’s not always a word or a voice. It could be a visual.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:29:31.336 – 00:29:33.552
So is it like, do you think that’s like a memory?
Katie (She/Her)
00:29:33.736 – 00:29:34.800
Yes. Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:29:34.840 – 00:29:38.320
So that’s almost like perhaps where it stems from.
The Process of Unpacking Trauma
Katie (She/Her)
00:29:38.440 – 00:30:19.196
Yes, yes. And you can go to that memory and you can actually even think. Okay, was there a time before that I also experienced this?
Because you can go around in a loop of your beliefs. It’s almost like you can have this belief, I’m not good enough. And then you say, see, I’ve got the evidence, because that time I wasn’t good enough.
But actually it was just because you were so stressed about doing it that your cortisol kicked in and your brain went mush and you did know and sort of almost became not good enough because of that. Just, I mean, so it’s. But this is built up of, like, lots of evidence over time. So if you can backtrack to the first time it started, you can.
You can rock the foundations of it almost, if you know what I mean.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:30:19.268 – 00:30:27.356
Yeah. I think Claire, my EFT therapist, she says it’s sort of like a table with four legs and you take one of the legs out and then the table can collapse.
Katie (She/Her)
00:30:27.428 – 00:30:37.070
Absolutely, yeah, yeah. And the earlier that. So the flat bit of the table is the belief and the legs are the stories, the events.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:30:37.150 – 00:30:38.118
Right, yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:30:38.214 – 00:30:47.710
And so if you can go earlier and earlier, the better, but sometimes it’s not safe to. So that’s absolutely fine. You start on the latest ones until it feels safe to go.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:30:47.790 – 00:30:48.262
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:30:48.366 – 00:30:49.678
To the other ones because I guess.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:30:49.734 – 00:31:08.772
You know, I mean, I’m not a trauma trained therapist anymore because, you know, I’ve stopped doing counseling now, but I know sort of trauma therapists are very careful about. They don’t want to re traumatize people. So they might not go back to the traumatic event. Is that sort of what Eft does or how does it work with Eft?
Katie (She/Her)
00:31:08.916 – 00:31:34.958
So with Eft, we approach it really slowly and gradually. So you might. It might come up that, oh, yes, there’s this event that’s really awful, but you can sense that they’re just not ready to go there.
So you almost like, you sort of like put it in a safe box and say, okay, put that box somewhere in your mind. Could be the bottom of the seals, wherever it feels safe, but along long way. So it’s like you’re dissociating from it.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:31:35.014 – 00:31:35.534
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:31:35.662 – 00:31:44.478
And then you just. You tap on, even though I don’t want to look at the stuff in that box. So you literally start so far away from it.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:31:44.534 – 00:31:45.006
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:31:45.118 – 00:32:13.374
And you gradually creep closer and closer. And you could just say, if. If this event had a title, what would it be?
And then you tap on that and so you’re just getting tiny bit closer, tiny bit closer until the nervous system feels safe enough to visit memory. So we do it so gradually and constantly bearing in mind the nervous system. There’s no point, you know, you can’t work if it’s triggered.
So, yeah, it’s constantly keeping that safe.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:32:13.462 – 00:32:21.670
Keeping that safe. That must be quite. That takes skill, really, though, doesn’t it? I mean, that’s presumably something you learn when you’re sort of on your course.
Katie (She/Her)
00:32:21.830 – 00:32:44.930
It’s like you need to be really observant of their breathing, of facial expressions, or they might take a sigh or, I don’t know, anything. You know, you just have to be really observant and think, okay, what happened there? You know? And they say, oh, no, no, it’s too scary.
And because they might not always verbalize it straight away. Yeah. So then you just see the cues and, okay, let’s take a step back from this.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:32:45.820 – 00:32:47.100
Just sort of keep them safe.
Katie (She/Her)
00:32:47.180 – 00:32:47.556
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:32:47.628 – 00:33:30.384
Yeah.
And presumably because I know, sort of like, I interviewed Emma Radway bright a few episodes ago and she said it’s a lovely story because she went to go on a different course. That’s also called EFT because it’s. This is emotional freedom technique that’s happening, isn’t it? And there’s another therapy that’s called EFT.
And she thought she was going on that, but then she ended up on an eft course and she thought, I’m just going to, I’ll send them a note at lunchtime. But she said by lunchtime she was completely hooked.
And she said, you know, it’s such a simple technique, but she uses it an awful lot with, with people because it’s so easy to do. I suppose, that clients can use it themselves as well.
Katie (She/Her)
00:33:30.472 – 00:34:50.780
Yes, totally. And the thing I think is a really good thing to do is, you know, like a mind map.
I always think, put the issue on a, on the center of a bit of paper and then say, okay, so what is this all about? And then you just draw, like, I don’t know, it could be anxiety. Okay, so why am I anxious?
And just keep filling out this mind map and then just tap on each element of the mind map. Yeah, I think that’s a really good way of tapping on by yourself.
Because the thing is, when people say, oh, no, eft didn’t work for me, actually, what happens is that they haven’t covered every aspect. And so as you say, you’re scared of spiders, let’s say, and say it could be the legs that’s frightening you.
So you tap down the legs and then they say, oh, it’s the hairiness of it. So we tap down the hairiness of it. They say, I’m still scared of spiders.
That’s because we haven’t tapped down every aspect yet, you know, and so as soon as one clears another, one has room to surface. So if anyone says it hasn’t worked, it’s because you haven’t found every aspect yet. And that’s why I treat it like being a detective, really.
Because you sort of have to cleverly, like, keep testing and finding clever ways of finding out what’s, what’s remaining.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:34:50.940 – 00:35:04.934
And presumably that’s why. Because this is what happens to me.
I mean, I’ve been working with my ft therapists for several years now and I get really, I can get really frustrated with myself, actually, because I’ll go back and I’ll say to Claire, oh, we’re back here again.
Katie (She/Her)
00:35:05.062 – 00:35:06.518
Yes, yes.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:35:06.694 – 00:35:11.958
But it’s sort of like, from what you’re saying, it’s like, yeah, because you haven’t actually finished yet.
Katie (She/Her)
00:35:12.094 – 00:36:04.698
Yeah, yeah, it’s. So, for instance, my story that I went to, you know, we were saying about the course I went to, and I actually was tapped on something.
It was to do with when I was five and I’d gone to the teacher to ask some help. And they said, no, no, go back to your chair.
And I was so anxious about getting it wrong, and everyone else seemed to know what they were doing, and I didn’t know what to do that I ended up being sick and everyone around the table to be sick as well, which wasn’t. She was even more cross with me. But there were so many aspects to that, like the expression on her face, the tone of her voice. There was.
What I made it mean. There was a, like, kids faces around the table. You know what I mean? There were so many reasons to keep revisiting that scene.
And until you’ve cleared every last one, it’s gonna feel like it’s still there.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:36:04.794 – 00:36:30.422
Yeah. Yeah. That’s really interesting. I don’t think you’ve told me that before to that sort of different. The different aspects of it. Yeah.
And how you can visit something that’s so as a little child might be quite.
Feel quite insignificant in a sense, and maybe something that you think you shouldn’t have taken so much to heart or whatever, and yet it’s so important to you and it’s really influenced you throughout your life.
Katie (She/Her)
00:36:30.526 – 00:36:31.894
Yeah. Massively. Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:36:31.982 – 00:36:40.310
To lift that. And like you say, you compare that to the credit card thing, which you could have thought, oh, I’ve done something wrong.
Katie (She/Her)
00:36:40.430 – 00:36:41.150
Yes.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:36:41.310 – 00:36:45.488
And yet you were able to sort of say to your husband quite calmly, yeah, I’ve lost my credit card.
Katie (She/Her)
00:36:45.584 – 00:36:47.420
Yeah. Complete chakra.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:36:48.080 – 00:36:50.136
One of those table legs have been knocked out.
Katie (She/Her)
00:36:50.208 – 00:36:55.376
Absolutely, yeah. And to actually notice it in the moment felt so significant.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:36:55.528 – 00:36:56.064
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:36:56.152 – 00:37:03.264
It was like, oh, my goodness, my body’s calm. This is amazing party. It was so. It’s such a lovely feeling.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:37:03.352 – 00:37:18.636
And I imagine as well that, I mean, you know, if you. If you’re somebody who does live with a lot of anxiety, you know, that does have an effect on your body.
Tears, hunching your shoulders up, which is something that I do. So, you know, it would affect your bodily health as well, in a sense.
Katie (She/Her)
00:37:18.708 – 00:37:19.360
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:37:23.340 – 00:37:44.332
I was going to say the other thing that I found really helpful. I don’t know if this happens with you, but when I’m tapping, so we’ll tap on something.
And I think, for me, often I’m seeing things in very black and white terms. But what I find as I tapdez around it is it can get reframed. Like, it can be the same sentence, but it can have a completely different meaning.
Katie (She/Her)
00:37:44.436 – 00:37:45.308
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:37:45.484 – 00:37:58.596
You know, and I can’t think of a good example, but it’ll just change it completely and absolutely, you know, and I’ll suddenly think, well, actually, that that’s not a bad thing, that’s actually quite a good thing. Or, you know, it sort of changes your attitude to things, doesn’t it?
Katie (She/Her)
00:37:58.628 – 00:38:47.440
It really does. It completely reframes it and. And you start to see. See? So say there’s been an argument or something and say it’s.
I always imagine, like, you’ve got this rucksack and everyone’s got these red buttons on and like, say someone said, oh, you’re so useless, press the button and that triggers that person, sort of thing. And they don’t know they’ve triggered your button, but you feel it. And so when you then tap on that argument, you suddenly say, oh, do you know what?
I think that comment triggered them and hence why they then said that to me. Oh, I get it now. Right, fair enough. They were equally as triggered as I was. And so it just helps you say, oh, okay, yeah, I get it now. Fair enough.
Conclusion and Resources
Josephine (She/Her)
00:38:47.560 – 00:39:09.246
So, Katie, we’re just sort of coming towards the end. It’s been. I’m sure people are going to find this episode absolutely fascinating. Actually, I think it might be worth a.
Perhaps if you’d like to share with me, I’ll put it in the show notes where you did your training, but also, how can people find you and how can people work with you if they’re sort of interested in doing some tapping?
Katie (She/Her)
00:39:09.438 – 00:39:39.270
Yeah, so they can find me. My website’s Katie’s EFT coaching and I’m on social media as well.
I also offer a free efT taster session, so that, because I strongly believe you need to try it to actually feel the effect of it and notice how it feels, because, you know, so many people do think, oh, that’s a bit odd. And I get that because that’s how I felt. But, yeah, so if you fancy working with me, but just want to try it out first, then book a taster session.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:39:39.350 – 00:39:52.310
Brilliant. Yeah, yeah. And obviously I’ll put the website and your social media in the show notes.
I was just thinking, actually, when you said that, because I think sometimes what happens with me, I don’t know if this happens with you, but I can do my tapping session.
Katie (She/Her)
00:39:52.430 – 00:39:53.130
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:39:53.590 – 00:39:56.286
And it’ll be sort of like, you know, we’ll just work through it.
Katie (She/Her)
00:39:56.358 – 00:39:56.822
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:39:56.926 – 00:40:12.414
And sometimes when people are tapping, they say, oh, tell me what your feelings are on a scale of one to ten, don’t they? And they’re trying to get you to tap, to get the numbers down. Well, in fact, I think. I think, for me, that sometimes feels a bit too pressurized.
So Claire doesn’t do it with me quite so often as she used to do.
Katie (She/Her)
00:40:12.502 – 00:40:12.950
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:40:13.030 – 00:40:32.920
But often what I’ll find is that it will be after the session that I’ll feel completely different. And usually what happens is I go back and see Claire the following week. She said, how’s your week been?
I said, well, I can’t remember what we talked about last time, because it’s just. It just like, it’s just gone, hasn’t it? So whatever the problem was.
Katie (She/Her)
00:40:33.000 – 00:40:33.488
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:40:33.584 – 00:40:39.976
And I often find that it’s afterwards that I really notice the difference, rather than during the session.
Katie (She/Her)
00:40:40.088 – 00:40:40.336
Yes.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:40:40.368 – 00:40:48.698
It’s almost.
I just want to say that for anybody who maybe does come and try a toaster session with you, that certainly for me, it’s like, give it some time as well.
Katie (She/Her)
00:40:48.794 – 00:41:00.386
Yeah, yeah. Because, like, the energy’s moving. It’s like you’ve had this stuck energy, you’ve tapped through it, and it’s.
Now, you know, it’s flowing through you and releasing.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:41:00.498 – 00:41:00.874
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:41:00.922 – 00:41:05.202
And so it’s almost like you’ve got to let the dust settle and say, okay, how do I feel now?
Josephine (She/Her)
00:41:05.306 – 00:41:39.934
Yeah, that’s good. By putting it. Yeah, yeah, let dust settle. Oh, Katie, thank you so much for coming along and telling us all about EFT.
And I know people will be interested in it, both from, like, a personal, therapeutic point of view for themselves.
But also, I think, you know, more people are talking about eft in the therapy world because, like you say, because we know so much more about trauma, and it’s a somatic approach. So I think a lot of people will be interested to have heard how you use it and how it can help people. How it’s helped us too, as well.
Katie (She/Her)
00:41:39.982 – 00:41:40.782
Yeah, absolutely.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:41:40.846 – 00:41:59.518
Because, I mean, the Katie that I know now is so much grown so much since you’ve been doing eft, haven’t you?
And just seeing you take these leaps and bounds and setting up private practice, doing your social media, all these things that before you were so scared of doing.
Katie (She/Her)
00:41:59.614 – 00:42:00.022
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:42:00.086 – 00:42:03.086
And now I’ve just. You’re just doing it, aren’t you? So.
Katie (She/Her)
00:42:03.198 – 00:42:04.982
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:42:05.086 – 00:42:05.390
Yeah.
Katie (She/Her)
00:42:05.430 – 00:42:06.054
Thank you.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:42:06.182 – 00:42:07.774
So thanks so much for coming along.
Katie (She/Her)
00:42:07.862 – 00:42:09.330
Oh, thanks so much, Jo.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:42:10.190 – 00:42:44.620
Thanks for listening. Do come and join my Facebook community, Good Enough Counsellors, and for more information about how I can help you develop your private practice please visit my website, Josephinehughes.com. If you found this episode helpful, I’d love it if you could share it with a fellow therapist or leave a review on your podcast app. And in closing, I’d love to remind you that every single step you make gets you closer to your dream. I really believe you can do it.