Michael (He/Him)
00:00:01.560 – 00:00:34.225
One thing I learned through the Clinical will app journey, I guess you can call it, is that people are committed to doing things, but, you know, they often don’t get round to them. And something like a clinical will, you can always put it off. You know, it’s sort of.
It’s maybe less important than other things, but it’s actually a really, really easy thing to do with the right technology.
So, you know, I was just really interested in making it as easy as possible because it is, when it’s needed, it’s really, really important, as the story you kind of told illustrates.
And building something like this platform has just helped people kind of get it done once and for all and then kind of know, keep it updated very easily, which means they can sort of clear that off their list of things to do.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:00:40.965 – 00:00:58.797
Welcome to the Good Enough Counsellors Podcast, where today I’m delighted to introduce you to Michael Toller.
Michael is a psychotherapist and coach working in London, and he’s also the creator of the Clinical Will Apply, which we’ll move on to talk about in a little while. So welcome, Michael.
Michael (He/Him)
00:00:58.941 – 00:01:01.389
Hello, Josephine. Thank you very much for having me.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:01:01.477 – 00:01:10.117
Oh, thanks for being here. So I be really lovely if we could introduce you to the listeners. So can you tell me a bit about who you are and what you do?
Michael (He/Him)
00:01:10.301 – 00:01:18.949
Yeah, of course. I work both as a psychodynamic counselor or psychotherapist, and I do a lot of coaching as well alongside that.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:01:19.037 – 00:01:23.117
Yeah. So what sort of coaching do you do? Is that business coaching or personal?
Michael (He/Him)
00:01:23.181 – 00:01:28.457
Yeah, I would. I would say it’s a real mix these days. I started out working as a career coach.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:01:28.561 – 00:01:29.009
Yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:01:29.097 – 00:01:47.161
But people come to me for all sorts of reasons now.
So I tend to talk about it in terms of really helping people make important changes in their life, whether that’s in their working lives or their personal lives. Yeah, yeah, it’s kind of. I sort of work across the board in terms of issues that people might want to work through with a coach.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:01:47.273 – 00:01:51.609
Yeah. And with your therapy, what sort of things do you work with in your therapy?
Michael (He/Him)
00:01:51.697 – 00:02:25.515
Well, given that I’m speaking to other psychotherapists and counselors, I imagine it’s probably fair to say that I work with, you know, many of the kinds of issues that other therapists and counselors work with. So, you know, people who are struggling in their.
In their everyday lives for one reason or another, whether that’s in relation to difficult feelings like depression or anxiety or difficult things that are happening or have happened in their lives, whether, again, whether that’s in their personal lives or their. Or in their working lives. So probably people who are struggling a bit more day to day than my coaching clients.
But again, really a very broad range of things that I might help someone.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:02:25.555 – 00:02:48.947
With because the other thing I really want to ask you about, because, you know, you describe yourself as a psychotherapist, which I think is quite modest because actually you’ve got. You’re a member of the British Psychoanalytical Council, aren’t you? And I noticed on your.
On your website they were a clinical fellow of the neuropsychoanalysts. I can’t even say it. The Neuro Psychoanalysis Association.
Michael (He/Him)
00:02:49.131 – 00:02:49.539
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:02:49.587 – 00:02:55.517
So could you tell us a little bit about neuropsychoanalysts? Because I don’t really know anything about it. What does it involve?
Michael (He/Him)
00:02:55.621 – 00:04:35.014
It is what it first is really hard to pronounce. Yeah, neuro. So it’s a combination of neuroscience and psychoanalysis. And where do I start with it? Been working as a psychodynamic.
I’m psychedelically trained. Been working as a psychodynamic counselor, officially under the VPC’s categorization for something like seven years now.
And along the way, as I think many colleagues do, I’m interested in other approaches as other ways of thinking about, you know, the way human beings operate and why we feel and think the way we do. And at some point in my.
I guess in my sort of ongoing professional development journey, I came across a man called Mark Soames who I would say is probably at the very heart of the neuropsychoanalytic movement. And really, you know, it is sort of what it says on the tin. It’s.
He’s worked to sort of bring together knowledge and understanding from neuroscience and behavioral science and bring that into the psychoanalytic framework, which if you think about a mind and a brain being connected in some way, which I think we all have to assume they are, that’s really what that’s about.
So it’s sort of thinking about what’s happening in someone’s mind or their psyche in relation to what we now can kind of understand in terms of neuroscience and what we know about brains and the way they work. So I hope that’s a useful introduction to what that is and what might the.
The organization I’m a member of basically represents people who think about neuropsychoanalytic approaches and brings them together. And, you know, there’s a sort of expected conferences and reading.
So really that’s all that is, just means I’m Interested in neuropsychoanalysis as a kind of way of thinking about things.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:04:35.174 – 00:04:38.798
I was going to say because I’m not psychodynamic. So the name that you mentioned is Michael Soames.
Michael (He/Him)
00:04:38.846 – 00:04:40.654
Did you say Mark Soames?
Josephine (She/Her)
00:04:40.734 – 00:04:50.690
Mark Soames. I haven’t heard of him. That’s not to say that my listeners who are psychodynamic, they might say, well, of course, yes, we all know about him.
I don’t know. But yeah, quite, quite interesting.
Michael (He/Him)
00:04:50.782 – 00:04:58.219
Definitely worth looking up. And, you know, there is some stuff online written by him and he’s written a book as well, which is. Which is brilliant.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:04:58.307 – 00:05:02.011
Yeah. So is it something that you do actually use with your clients, then?
Michael (He/Him)
00:05:02.203 – 00:05:18.161
Yeah, I’m actually in a supervision group with him on top of my clinical supervision. So it’s something, yeah, I use in a very kind of active way. And it’s really powerful.
It’s a really powerful framework for thinking about, you know, why someone thinks and feels the way they do.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:05:18.283 – 00:05:28.525
Yeah.
So I guess it’s sort of like it’s using those knowledge that we’ve learned about the way the brain works, but just applying that in yours when you’re working psychodynamically and.
Michael (He/Him)
00:05:28.605 – 00:06:07.979
Yeah, and for me, as a psychodynamic practitioner, it’s particularly, I think, useful because in a way it sort of just backs up what a psychodynamic or psychoanalytic way of thinking about someone’s experience already kind of helps us to sort of explore, which is really to do with past experiences and the way that they inform how we think or feel or go about our lives in the present. So, you know, I know that’s. That’s. That’s not unique to psychoanalytic approach, but it’s really fundamental to a psychoanalytic approach.
And in a way, the neuropsychoanalytic thinking sort of really helps to kind of underline that connection when we think about someone’s. Someone’s life and their experience of life.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:06:08.107 – 00:06:25.583
I have. You had to go through this really long. There’s a lot of people who.
Psychoanalysts, they do that really, really long process of becoming a psychoanalyst, don’t they? Which involves, like therapy, so three times a week and over a long period of time. Is that. Is that sort of been part of your background as well?
Michael (He/Him)
00:06:25.719 – 00:06:49.539
Well, I mean, to be really clear, I’m not a psychoanalyst, so. Because I know that the terms are quite similar. So I work psychodynamically, which means I meet my clients once a week on a weekly basis.
Usually over the longer term. And as part of my training, I went to therapy once a week for a long time and kind of for a lot longer than the training required it.
I really made the most of that therapy and worked through a lot of my own stuff in that I think.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:06:49.547 – 00:07:12.967
A lot of us do that sort of minimum required. It often is the minimum, isn’t it? And I think there’s so many of us who just continue to use it because it’s so useful.
And the other thing I was just sort of interested to notice is you work in Shoreditch, don’t you? So sort of sort of city, East East London, ish, that sort of thing.
So do you get sort of people from the city coming and using you or is it more sort of more local people?
Michael (He/Him)
00:07:13.111 – 00:07:36.063
Yeah, sometimes. Not exclusively though, I’d say. I mean, I have clients from, I would say really all over London.
I mean, some of them do live closer and you know, that’s, that’s no coincidence. But I also have clients who live further away and travel to see me.
And you know, I mean, people obviously work, often work in central London, so it might be kind of more convenient for people. But it’s sort of not only people who work in or near the city or live in or near the city.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:07:36.199 – 00:07:42.483
And the other thing that I think people are really interested in, because it’s obviously a marketing podcast, is how you get your clients.
Michael (He/Him)
00:07:42.619 – 00:08:19.361
Yeah, that’s a good question. I used to be on a lot of registers. I’m on fewer now because I found that they were not bringing me as many clients as they used to.
I’m part of some groups of psychotherapists and counselors who are based in East London who sort of cross refer to each other quite a lot. And some people find me, I think, directly via my website, which.
Which I’m not sure whether that means they’re sort of looking for me specifically, but I guess I’m also available on Google and I imagine some people also, you know, maybe look me up and having heard about me from someone I’ve worked with, because I’ve worked with quite a few people now over the years.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:08:19.433 – 00:08:25.961
Yeah, yeah, I was going to say you get those sort of like recurring, possibly people coming back, but also people referring you.
Michael (He/Him)
00:08:26.033 – 00:08:35.437
Yeah, well, yeah, My sense is that as you do more of this work, maybe old clients of yours might mention you to someone they know if they’re looking for a therapist and then they might come and find you that way.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:08:35.521 – 00:08:50.053
And then I just sort of wanted to ask a bit More about. Because we’re going to move on and talk a little bit more about the Clinical Will app, which is something that you’ve developed.
Yeah, I just think it’d be really interesting to explore a little bit because like many therapists, this wasn’t your first career, was it?
Michael (He/Him)
00:08:50.149 – 00:08:50.517
That’s right.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:08:50.541 – 00:08:57.205
So I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your. Your journey, because you done various things in your career, haven’t you?
Michael (He/Him)
00:08:57.285 – 00:09:16.721
Yeah, I have, yeah.
I mean, I worked in publishing for a while earlier on in my 20s, and then I, by accident, I was running some music events kind of for fun outside of my sort of working life, and they turned into kind of bigger events and then into a business that I ended up running for about 10 years with a business partner. So.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:09:16.793 – 00:09:17.233
Wow.
Michael (He/Him)
00:09:17.329 – 00:10:02.071
I ended up leaving my work in publishing and doing that full time and built up a business and through that really kind of, I guess, got in touch with my entrepreneurial side, which I think will come to in a bit, because it’s sort of partly what’s led me on to develop the clinical Will platform.
But, yeah, did that for a while, but then maybe about, I don’t know, 15 or so years ago in my mid-30s, and I sort of started thinking ahead to kind of my. My 40th birthday in a sort of.
As a sort of symbolic number in terms of, you know, getting older and sort of thinking carefully about the kind of work I wanted to do with my sort of, you know, the rest of my working life, if you like, and thought very carefully about other things that I might want to do because I fel. Felt that what I was doing at the time wasn’t something I wanted to do forever.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:10:02.183 – 00:10:02.915
Yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:10:03.215 – 00:10:14.567
And then through an interest in mental health, started thinking about counseling and did an intro course and then sort of followed on with another one and then ultimately decided to train to work as a psychotherapist myself.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:10:14.711 – 00:10:35.769
Yeah. Was it difficult to make that leap because you had sort of like a successful business?
Because I know sort of like so many people that may be employed that they do the psychotherapy training on the side, but actually taking that leap especially for you, because, you know, you had a successful business already. So was it difficult to sort of make that change, or did you do it gradually?
Michael (He/Him)
00:10:35.897 – 00:11:16.383
Yeah, I mean, I did it gradually in terms of. I didn’t just sort of jump all at once. I thought very carefully. You know, I talked to people. I sort of thought through the change I wanted to make.
And it was also actually to do with, I guess, what we call lifestyle.
So that work was quite demanding both in terms of how much time it took up, but also I was often working in the evenings or late at night, particularly at the weekends. And at the time I was also sort of thinking ahead with my, with my wife to whether or not we were going to have a family, which we’ve gone on to do.
And I realized that doing that work wasn’t really going to work well with that. So I was also thinking in those terms and sort of looking for something that maybe I could do in kind of more regular working hours.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:11:16.479 – 00:11:16.919
Yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:11:17.007 – 00:12:09.095
To answer, to answer your question so directly, yeah.
I mean, it wasn’t, it was, it was something I knew I needed to do and wanted to do because I wanted to do work that was more fulfilling as well, longer term. And I knew I needed to because of the reasons I’ve just mentioned.
But that didn’t make it any easier because there was a point where I had to sort of wind up my involvement with the old business, which I did, and then sort of make the jump into the new work. And that wasn’t easy, particularly as training and then finding work as a psychotherapist can take a long time, which ultimately discovered it would.
And it was really at that point that I got interested in coaching as a way to make some, you know, make some money, I guess a bit more kind of quickly than waiting to take on private practice clients as a psychotherapist.
So along the way I discovered coaching and did a training in that and then ultimately set up a practice as a coach as well and built that in a way much more quickly than my psychotherapy practice, which just needed more time.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:12:09.215 – 00:12:13.975
It’s interesting actually, because a lot of coaches actually find it really difficult to track clients, don’t they?
Michael (He/Him)
00:12:14.055 – 00:12:47.087
Yeah, I mean, it wasn’t, it didn’t happen overnight either. And I worked really, really hard to market myself and sort of get myself out there.
I’m sort of thinking back now because again, that was quite a long time ago too. So it feels very different now in terms of where my clients come from, how they find me.
You know, again, now it’s much more, it feels much more organic and I, you know, people, I’ve got a network of coaches and we sort of cross refer and I have a bit of a reputation as well and a bunch of people I’ve worked with who I know talk about me and send me new clients. But back then I had to, you know, work very hard to sort of get my name out there.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:12:47.151 – 00:13:15.143
Yeah, I think one of the things about coaching as well is.
And I don’t know if you agree with this or not, but I’m sure the fact that you’d had to make those difficult decisions and actually have the courage to make those changes in your own life, I think that’s often what you’re helping people with in coaching, isn’t it? That it’s often, you know, a lot of it is about encouraging people, supporting them as they want to take those steps.
But actually it’s really scary, isn’t it?
Michael (He/Him)
00:13:15.279 – 00:14:01.259
Yeah, I think you’re right.
You know, people talk about walking the talk, and I think, you know, it’s not always directly relevant because people come to me wanting to make all sorts of changes, both in my work as a coach and a psychotherapist. But as I said before, you know, that tends to be the focus of most of the work I do, certainly as a coach.
And I think, you know, directly or indirectly, it is really important that I have made sort of changes of my own, like, really important changes of my own, again, whether they’re in my personal life or my professional life. And I think that is really important in my work as a coach. And as a coach, I work differently than I do as a therapist.
I often bring that experience directly into a coaching session.
And I think, you know, where it’s useful, it can be a really important way of building rapport with a client or inspiring them to do something important of their own.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:14:01.347 – 00:14:37.369
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Because I think it’s one of the hardest things, actually, is, isn’t it? I mean, we.
And it’s funny because we work in this whole business of change, but actually, I think especially a lot of people I work with in therapists who are sort of thinking about maybe going into private practice or growing their private practice or doing something new in their private practice. We all face the same thing, which is this huge fear on the sort of side of not done.
And it’s so difficult often to make that leap over, to actually take a step and actually take that leap of faith.
Michael (He/Him)
00:14:37.497 – 00:15:28.373
I think so. I think you’re right. Yeah, of course. Because, you know, I think we often find comfort, maybe in the Devils we know better, if you like.
And changes can be exciting, but can also be very unsettling and quite scary as well.
Again, it’s interesting that we’re talking at this point, which is quite a way into, I guess, my career as a solo psychotherapist and coach, where I really. I’m working mainly by myself, whereas before I’d always Worked with other people and within, you know, organizations of varying sizes.
And, you know, you maybe feel you have some kind of backup.
But I think one of the hardest things about setting up in private practice, either as a coach or a therapist, is that to some extent you’re really on your own.
I mean, of course, you know, there are people who support you in various ways, but it can be quite a lonely thing to do and you’re sort of taking on all the responsibility by yourself as well, which can be quite scary.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:15:28.469 – 00:15:28.877
I agree.
Michael (He/Him)
00:15:28.941 – 00:16:00.225
So, yeah, I agree with you. But, you know, I think it’s. I think sort of in relation to that, it’s really important to go looking for support because it’s out there.
Whether that’s in the form of colleagues that you work with. I mean, I have a peer supervision group, I have informal groups, colleagues that I stay in touch with or on Facebook.
I mean, I’m very aware that you’re present there and so are lots of others. And, you know, whether that’s people leading groups that offer support or just taking part, the support is out there.
And I think it’s really important that people access it because it makes it all a lot easier and less scary and even a lot more fun as well.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:16:00.305 – 00:16:35.053
Yeah, yeah, I agree, actually. I mean, I think. I think sort of facing things on your own can be really scary.
And this, I think, was, you know, we will talk a bit about the clinical will out. Because that’s one of the scary things, isn’t it? Is. Is having to deal with a lot of the. I mean, it put me in front of a client really happy.
But ask me, you know, like write a GDPR policy or set up my clinical will app or, you know, even for me it’s silly things like my business banking and that sort of stuff. And it just like, ah, I find.
Michael (He/Him)
00:16:35.109 – 00:16:41.365
All that other stuff that you need to get kind of get in place before you get to doing the actual thing you’re there to do.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:16:41.445 – 00:16:42.093
That’s it.
Michael (He/Him)
00:16:42.189 – 00:16:42.701
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:16:42.813 – 00:16:50.805
And it’s sort of like, I think sometimes just being able to ask other people what they’ve done and how they’ve done it can be really helpful, I think.
Michael (He/Him)
00:16:50.845 – 00:17:40.906
So.
I want to also say that on the flip side, you know, I mean, I know plenty of counselors and psychotherapists work in organizations and, you know, for all sorts of reasons. But, you know, someone who works on my own, like solely in private practice on my own. There’s also.
The other side of it is that it can be very rewarding as well to Work through all of those challenges. There’s a lot of freedom. Yeah, yeah, well, there’s that. But also sort of sense of satisfaction that you’ve worked things out.
I had to work all that stuff out. Still working some of it out because I think it’s a never ending process really, where you continually keep trying to learn and improve.
But at some point, you know, particularly if you work for yourself, you can say, wow, yeah, I made this change and I’ve set this thing up and I’ve kind of got there, I mean, obviously with lots of help, but I can sort of also feel quite satisfied that I’ve managed to do that. And it is very satisfying.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:17:40.970 – 00:17:55.241
Yeah, it’s real sense of achievement, actually.
And I think especially when you are bringing in enough clients, you’re bringing in enough money and you’re seeing that you have actually made this into a business and that’s actually a really. I mean, I look at that and think, wow, I can’t believe I’ve actually done it.
Michael (He/Him)
00:17:55.433 – 00:18:55.301
Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. Like, it is very satisfying. That’s the bit I’m talking about.
I’m not necessarily talking about the work itself because I think wherever you work, you know, the most important thing is the work we’re doing with our clients. And that applies to sort of any setting.
But there’s this extra bit when you work on your own, which is the satisfaction of, you know, setting up a business with whatever processes you need to put in place. And then at some point you find yourself doing that and doing it successfully. And that is really. Yeah. Satisfying and exciting.
And links back to what I said before about, you know, the first business that I ran, which really gave me a taste for doing that.
And it’s part of the reason why I wanted to work in private practice rather than working in a kind of bigger organization, because I kind of relished the, the prospect of both the sort of the freedom, but also the satisfaction that comes with doing your own thing. Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, I haven’t sort of lost really, because you mentioned the clinical will app before.
And that in a way has given me another opportunity alongside the client work I do to really flex that muscle. And it’s been, it’s been a good challenge.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:18:55.373 – 00:19:18.513
Yeah. To actually do something a bit different as well. And I think, I think, yeah, I think actually.
So what I’ve discovered through my journey, I mean, now I don’t work face to face with counseling clients because this sort of part of my business is something that I feel is more Me, but, you know, that. That sort of sense of being able to create other staff, it’s actually. It’s a really satisfying thing to do.
Michael (He/Him)
00:19:18.649 – 00:19:32.833
Yeah, it’s a bit like once you get the taste for it. Yeah, I don’t know.
I got the taste for it running that first business, and then maybe have always looked for another sort of way of, as I say, flexing that muscle or kind of exploring that side of myself.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:19:32.929 – 00:19:36.193
Yeah, because you’ve got the coaching school as well, haven’t you?
Michael (He/Him)
00:19:36.249 – 00:19:47.623
Yeah, that’s something I do less of now. I do still train coaches, but that was a training organization I was involved in when I’ve trained, so I helped to set that up.
And that’s where I was trained as a coach, too.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:19:47.679 – 00:19:48.039
So with.
Michael (He/Him)
00:19:48.087 – 00:20:12.207
With an established career coach who I was put in touch with through a mutual friend, and we set that up and trained coaches for something like four or five years. And I still work with.
I still train coaches occasionally on a kind of individual basis or for organizations that want it, but it’s not something I do sort of publicly anymore. So the coaching school is actually a business that I was running and doesn’t really exist anymore.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:20:12.271 – 00:20:18.803
Oh, right. One of those things sort of like, you know, you. You go through phases, don’t you, of doing different things.
And that was something that you did in the past.
Michael (He/Him)
00:20:18.859 – 00:20:48.275
Yeah, well, and as you say, you know, I think you. You find things that you enjoy and then maybe you decide to do more of them and sometimes you just see where things take you.
And, you know, I’ve sometimes made intentional choices about my career, like, you know, deciding to, you know, shift direction and move into psychotherapy and counseling and then taking on, you know, the coaching work as well.
But then other things, like the original music events business I ran or the, you know, the clinical will app have been more kind of happy accidents, I guess. You know, just following an interest in something.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:20:48.395 – 00:21:04.091
Yeah, yeah. So let’s, let’s. Let’s move on a bit and sort of talk about the clinical will app.
But I thought the first thing to do would be just to sort of refresh our minds as to why we would need to do clinical wills, because obviously we’ve got. Some people are students who are listening to this podcast.
Michael (He/Him)
00:21:04.243 – 00:21:16.311
So let me, let me take you back five years, because I didn’t really know the answer to that question five years ago, even though I’ve been working in private practice for a couple of. Of years, and it was only at the point where I joined the bpc, which, that you mentioned.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:21:16.343 – 00:21:16.535
Before.
Michael (He/Him)
00:21:16.575 – 00:23:17.277
So the British Psychoanalytic Council and like all the other professional membership organizations, they talk about clinical wills and require you to, well, suggest that you have one. The, the BPC actually requires you to demonstrate that you have one by telling them who your clinical trustees are.
So all of that made as much sense to me then as it might do, you know, to anyone starting out in private practice, which is to say, maybe not very much. It wasn’t until I needed to set up a clinical world because I was joining the bpc, that I went and sort of found out much more about what it was.
And I guess to give you a very simple version of what it is, it’s, it’s. People think about it as a document, but it’s actually a sort of a process for what happens if you’re suddenly unable to.
To work as a psychotherapist or counselor. So that can sometimes mean people die suddenly.
I mean, obviously nobody wants that to happen, but it does happen, or people get ill, maybe unexpectedly, and they might find themselves in a situation where they’ to contact their clients themselves to let them know that they’re not going to be able to continue working with them or let them know in the short term that, you know, something’s happened, which means that, you know, they’re not going to be able to sort of see them for sessions.
And in situations like that, you know, all the professional membership bodies recognize that it’s really important that clients, particularly clients, hear about that.
And so a clinical will is essentially a process and it will contain a document somewhere with the relevant information in where those clients, and then to a lesser extent, other organizations or people connected to someone’s practice, sort of contacted by, usually by a colleague who’s qualified and experienced appropriately to do that. So that’s what a clinical will is.
At the time, I didn’t know much about that, and I found it all quite confusing as to sort of exactly how it worked and where I needed to keep the information.
And so I went and found out a lot more about it and realized that there was potentially a better way of people setting up their clinical wills, which then ultimately led to me developing the app that you mentioned earlier, because.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:23:17.301 – 00:23:40.865
I mean, there isn’t really anywhere when you start digging into it. People have all sorts of different ways of doing it, don’t they? There is sort of particularly, no. No sort of recognized way of doing it.
And it can be very difficult, can’t it? Because you might have clients changing all the time.
You don’t know if your clinical will person if it’s a supervisor or somebody, if they might be available, there’s all sorts of complications along the way, isn’t there for.
Michael (He/Him)
00:23:41.925 – 00:23:57.789
I think, you know, this is what I, in a way realized when I started thinking about my own clinical will back then, was that it isn’t just a list of names that are sort of kept somewhere. It’s. It’s. Something has to happen, you know, a clinical trustee, by the way, that’s the term for the person who carries out your wishes.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:23:57.877 – 00:23:58.173
Yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:23:58.229 – 00:25:14.115
If they need to. So it’s.
It’s the person who’s sort of qualified, appropriately qualified and experienced to, say, contact clients on your behalf, which, if we think about what that means in clinical terms, it needs to be someone who’s able to do that, but also in terms of confidentiality, because they’ll have access to a list of names of your clients. So we have to think about GDPR and confidentiality, clinical confidentiality, in relation to that. So that’s your clinical trustee.
And if you think about how that would actually happen in the event that your trustee needs to contact your clients, you realize that there are quite a few steps. Someone needs to let them know that they need to do that.
So that might be someone personally who knows, who obviously knows that you’re ill or worse, have died suddenly. They need to know who to contact. So they’re going to need your trustee’s details. Your trustee then needs access to the information.
So I quickly realized that it’s quite a complicated thing and that some of the ways that colleagues were telling me they made that provision didn’t really seem good enough to me. They were telling me about physical records that could be accessed sometimes in their own home, which didn’t really make sense to me in terms of.
Of what might be happening if a trustee needs to access those or word docs that are sent backwards and forwards, which, you know, need to be updated. And it all just felt a bit kind of clunky and convoluted.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:25:14.195 – 00:25:14.787
Yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:25:14.931 – 00:25:26.315
So I just thought that there’s got to, you know, given that we live in the digital age, there’s got to be a better way of dealing with this. And it’s probably a digital product and had an idea and then sort of ultimately went on to make that a reality.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:25:26.395 – 00:25:50.803
I’m just going to pause there. And so I just wanted to tell a personal story, really, which is about.
So I had a friend who wanted to go have a counselor, went to the GP and the GP said, oh, this person, somebody I recommend to you, booked an appointment with this person and she bumped into me, the lady who wanted the counseling, the day after she’d had a phone call from this counselor’s daughter to say the counselor died over the weekend.
Michael (He/Him)
00:25:50.939 – 00:25:51.975
Right. Okay.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:25:52.475 – 00:26:17.987
And she was. I wouldn’t say she was distraught, but she was really pleased to see me because she knows I’m a counsellor.
And she said, I just don’t know what to do, she said. And I was already, you know, she was talking about bereaved, wants to talk about bereavement. She was all ready to go.
And, you know, I had my appointment coming up and suddenly, not only do I not have my appointment, but it turns out she’s died.
And with the best will in the world, the daughter, I mean, you know, who would want to be phoning up your mother’s clients to tell them that your mum’s died.
Michael (He/Him)
00:26:18.091 – 00:26:18.723
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:26:18.859 – 00:26:21.563
And also, she wasn’t a trained counselor, so.
Michael (He/Him)
00:26:21.619 – 00:26:22.067
Exactly.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:26:22.131 – 00:26:39.885
She didn’t know how to look after the lady who I knew or exactly how to recommend because she got the reference from the gp. She didn’t know how to find anybody else. And that’s sort of what she talked to me about and I was able to signpost her.
But that’s sort of like a typical scenario that can happen without a clinical will.
Michael (He/Him)
00:26:39.965 – 00:27:17.005
So I think it’s a really good illustration of why, and this is what I realized when I started thinking about it, why clinical wills are really important and also why they need to be done a certain way. A couple of things there.
Firstly, that counselor you mentioned obviously had some provision for getting someone to call people and essentially had a clinical will, but it was the wrong person, because unless her daughter was also a trained counselor, you know, you’ve got clinical and data sort of security, confidentiality, reasons why someone’s daughter should not be contacting clients on their behalf. There’s that. And also what you mentioned about, you know, the fact that I think your friend, you said, was going to work through a bereavement.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:27:17.125 – 00:27:17.477
Yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:27:17.541 – 00:27:46.725
If we think about a situation in which someone’s counselor or prospective counselor has died, that might be a really kind of triggering thing for them, and again, needs to be sort of handled by someone who’s appropriately qualified and experienced to do that, which is, you’d assume, would be someone that the counselor chooses to do that for them.
So, again, sort of just thinking, it just sort of illustrates why it’s really important to think about clinical will and making sure it’s set up properly for exactly the reason, the kinds of reasons that you’ve Just illustrated there.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:27:46.835 – 00:27:55.193
Yeah. So tell us about how the Clinical will app works then. What do people do and how does it work if something was to happen?
Michael (He/Him)
00:27:55.249 – 00:29:00.545
Yeah, so it’s a web based application or platform, so it’s available online. The URL is ClinicalWill app, so it’s really easy to find and sort of. It does two things.
Firstly, it is a secure place to put all the information that someone would need to contain include in there Clinical will. So that’s most importantly, that’s the client details, that’s the names and contact details. Usually that we. You don’t need to put clinical.
Any sort of clinical information beyond the names and contact details, unless it’s relevant to them.
Being contacted in the event of your death, for example, you know, in relation to sort of a trigger of bereavement or sickness or something like that, you know, it doesn’t need to contain process notes, so it’s just there to help your trustee sort of access the information in the event they need it. You can also include information for supervisors, supervisees and some people like to put other information relating to their private practice in.
So you know who you rent a room from or professional membership organizations that you belong to or, you know, insurance companies, sort of anything that you might want your trustee to kind of tidy up for you in relation to your practice. But the most important thing really is the client contact details.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:29:00.625 – 00:29:01.073
Yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:29:01.169 – 00:30:03.169
So first of all, it contains all that information in a way that’s kind of secure. And then secondly, it allows the relevant people to access the bits of that information they need. So that’s usually a couple of other people.
First of all, there’s what we call your next of kin and which doesn’t necessarily need to be a family member, but someone who knows you, who would know what’s happened to you if something did happen to you.
They can log in via their own username and password and all they have access to is the contact details for your clinical trustee that you’ve nominated. So they don’t have access to your client details.
For example, saying in the example you gave, the counselor’s daughter wouldn’t have been able to see the names and contact details, but she would have seen the name of the trustee that’s been appointed.
And then the clinical trustee has their own separate login as well and they can log in and if need be, they can then access all the details that your Clinical will contains. And that’s really it. So it just does sort of those two things.
It has the information stored and then it allows Access the correct access for the right people.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:30:03.257 – 00:30:04.409
Yeah, so it’s the permission.
Michael (He/Him)
00:30:04.497 – 00:30:38.569
So at the point where it’s needed, everyone can sort of do what they need to do. And finally it’s set up because it’s web based, it’s really easy to update.
And I think you pointed this out earlier, a clinical needs to be up to date as well.
So anyone you’ve stopped working with, you know, usually you’d remove them and then anyone new you’re working with, you add them in sort of as soon as possible. So we encourage our users to update their clinical wills regularly and we send out reminders to that effect as well.
So the idea is just to make it really, really easy to update that information, which means people sort of don’t need to so kind of give it a second thought once they’ve updated it. And it just sort of sits there.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:30:38.697 – 00:30:46.033
Yeah, it could almost be part of your onboarding process, couldn’t it? So you take a new client on, they have their first appointment. And that’s exactly what I do because.
Michael (He/Him)
00:30:46.049 – 00:31:01.609
I mean, obviously I use it and I find it really, you know, it does what I need it to. So whenever I do it, as soon as someone’s got in touch for the first time, I just put their name and contact details in there and.
Yeah, and then if they become a client, I sort of, I make a note saying that they’re now a client of mine.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:31:01.737 – 00:31:08.629
Right. So you do it even before they become a client. Presumably you might have appointment set up with them to have a initial chat or something.
Michael (He/Him)
00:31:08.677 – 00:31:13.509
Yeah, so if I’ve got a call with someone at that point, I put their details in and.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:31:13.637 – 00:31:29.345
Yeah, and the other thing, I was going to say another, another story.
So I do know somebody whose supervisor has actually died, but when I went on Counseling Directory recently, this person who’s died is still on Counseling Directory.
Michael (He/Him)
00:31:30.285 – 00:31:48.269
Right. It’s another good example.
You see, you could, you could put, you could put the, you know, your registration of a counseling director, you know, membership of a counseling directory into clinical will and ask your trustee to call whoever it is or email whoever it is just to tell them that you’ve died and that you’re no longer working and that they should take that down.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:31:48.357 – 00:31:53.997
Yeah, yeah. And what do you recommend? Because I know some people do this, they have more than one trustee. And is that possible?
Michael (He/Him)
00:31:54.061 – 00:32:23.239
Yeah, absolutely. So we recommend that people have enter more than one next of kin.
You know, again, it’s not easy to think about, but there might be a situation in which if you’re you know, if your next of kin is a partner that they might be involved in, you know, the same kind of a crash or something. Yeah, something like that. So it’s, you know, useful to have more than one and then the same with the trustee.
So I’ve actually got a couple of colleagues who are trustees of mine, which means that, you know, my. My next of kins call two people and then between them they can take care of the clinical will. That what I’ve asked them to do.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:32:23.327 – 00:32:36.771
Because there’s always. I mean, it is quite. I think it’s quite a. It is quite a big load, really, isn’t it?
Especially for someone who’s perhaps got a full practice, who might have, say, I don’t know, 15 to 20 clients a week, there’s quite a lot of people to contact, isn’t it? So.
Michael (He/Him)
00:32:36.803 – 00:32:40.571
Yeah, yeah, so there’s that too. It would help to sort of share the load.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:32:40.643 – 00:32:51.643
Yeah. And can you tell me, I don’t know if you. If you’re okay to tell me, how did you go about choosing who would be your sort of clinical will?
Trustees is. Have you got supervisors or.
Michael (He/Him)
00:32:51.739 – 00:33:01.341
Yeah, so one of the peer supervision groups I’m in, I asked two of the members of that to be my trustees and we do it for each other. So we’ve. We’ve just agreed that we’ll be each other’s trustees.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:33:01.453 – 00:33:01.909
Yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:33:01.997 – 00:33:23.651
And which sort of has the added benefit that they. Obviously, I bring some of my, you know, some of my work, some of my cases to that group, so they have a sort of.
A bit of an awareness of who I’m working with. And obviously they work in the same approach to me.
So they’re also psychodynamic practitioners, which, you know, I think is appropriate given that I work psychodynamically. I’d want someone who works in the same way to contact my clients on my behalf.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:33:23.763 – 00:33:45.935
So that’s another sort of thing to think about as well, isn’t it, as to who you might choose and who might be the most appropriate.
And also from what you’ve said, I just want to pick up on it, that people can also sort of leave instructions, presumably, as to how they want people to be contacted or you said special notes, if it’s going to be things that trigger people so that they can be sort of looked after.
Michael (He/Him)
00:33:46.265 – 00:34:26.195
Yeah. And sometimes, I know that sometimes therapists or counselors, you know, make a provision for their trustees to be paid. So, yeah, that’s.
That’s up to any individual.
And it’s something that you can sort of think about and then obviously discuss with your trustee, because you should be talking to your trustee about, you know, what it is they’ll be doing. So as well as leaving them some instructions, it’s something that you would talk to them at the point where you sort of.
You agree that they’re going to do that for you and what that means. Yeah, and I think people can obviously make, you know, whatever arrangements suitable suit them.
But I think the important thing is that people think about what it means for a trustee to do that in that situation, what information they’ll need and how they’re going to carry out your wishes and that you and you agree it with them up front.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:34:26.935 – 00:34:40.575
The only other thing I’m thinking about is passwords and loggings because presumably, you know, it might be that your clinical. I’m thinking of the person who you’re next of kin. They’ve got to make sure that they can remember the passwords and everything, haven’t they?
Michael (He/Him)
00:34:40.615 – 00:35:02.511
Well, there is that, but it’s set up. If you forget your password, then you can use your email address to reset the password as, you know, with any. With any website these days.
So that’s how it works. I mean it’s exactly like any other website you might forget your log into.
So all they need to remember is what the website’s called, ConnectorWorld App. And then hopefully they’ll know what their email address is and if they need to reset their password, they can.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:35:02.543 – 00:35:05.799
Yeah. And that could be something that you’ve even instructions about, isn’t it?
Michael (He/Him)
00:35:05.847 – 00:35:06.135
Exactly.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:35:06.175 – 00:35:07.831
It’s just thinking of all these things.
Michael (He/Him)
00:35:07.903 – 00:35:08.255
Exactly.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:35:08.295 – 00:35:11.959
I just know what I’m like when I don’t log into something for ages and I can never. My password.
Michael (He/Him)
00:35:12.047 – 00:35:13.315
No, no, I know.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:35:14.255 – 00:35:19.543
So tell us a bit about sort of cost structure and how people. People have to pay that sort of stuff.
Michael (He/Him)
00:35:19.719 – 00:35:21.287
Yeah. For the app, you mean?
Josephine (She/Her)
00:35:21.431 – 00:35:22.215
Yeah, yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:35:22.255 – 00:35:49.841
Well, I want it to be as accessible as possible, so it’s available on a pay what you think is fair basis. So it’s up to individual practitioners to decide what it’s worth for them.
We do suggest that people pay for an annual subscription what they charge one client for one session.
But I know that everyone’s circumstances are different and you know, people have big practices and small practices and they work in all sorts of different financial contexts. So we leave it up to them to decide what they want to pay us for. Annual subscription.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:35:49.953 – 00:35:55.633
Yeah. And does that work? I mean, do you get enough money coming in for your development sort of stuff?
Michael (He/Him)
00:35:55.729 – 00:36:20.021
Yeah, it does. I Mean, we’re growing the number of users, which helps, obviously, but yeah, I think most people pay a really fair amount.
I mean, most people do follow our suggestion, but you know, where they don’t.
We recognize that it could be for all sorts of reasons and ultimately we want people to use the platform to set up their clinical wills and obviously, you know, just increase the chance of them having something in place if they ever needed to.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:36:20.133 – 00:36:29.685
So is it sort of expensive? I mean, this is just a stray question. Is it expensive to do something like run an app? Presumably you have to play.
Do you have to pay like Apple and people like that to run the app?
Michael (He/Him)
00:36:29.725 – 00:37:45.981
Yeah, there were running costs for sure. It’s been. The biggest cost has been our time.
So I set it up with an ex coaching client of mine who, he worked in tech or he still does, and he, you know, at the point where I had the idea, I knew that he’d be interested in. We’d stop working together by this point.
And he doesn’t mind me telling this story because obviously he’s my business partner now, but I knew that he would be interested in developing something like that.
So I dropped him a line a while after I’d been working, I’d been helping him with a career coaching thing, got in touch with him and he was interested and we both put a lot of time into sort of conceiving it and designing it and building it and testing it and then ultimately kind of spreading the word and marketing it.
And so the biggest cost initially was our time, which I guess you can calculate in terms of, you know, what I would normally earn if I’d done other things. But I decided it was a good thing to do. And then more recently, it does have running costs.
I mean, there are technical running costs, there are insurance costs, and we’re doing a bit of marketing as well, just try and sort of spread the word. But yeah, you know, it’s, it’s viable, not least because people do pay us fairly for it, which we ask them to do.
So if they continue to do that, then hopefully we’ll, we’ll continue to grow the platform and just find more users using it.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:37:46.053 – 00:37:50.829
I was going to say, because the insurance cost. Is that to do with the fact that you’ve got people’s information on there or.
Michael (He/Him)
00:37:50.917 – 00:38:18.177
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, this is getting into real sort of GDPR and ICO kind of technical detail.
But, you know, we’re all, I mean, just individual practitioners, we are data processing, so we all hold information relates to other people running this app. We sort of do that then on behalf of other people, which makes us. Hang on. So we’re aware of data processors, so we’re all.
As therapists, we’re all data controllers. And then. Yeah, that’s right. In this. In terms of this app, I mean, we’re a data. I’m a data processor as well.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:38:18.281 – 00:38:21.385
And it’s quite a lot of names. It’s quite sensitive. Does it.
Michael (He/Him)
00:38:21.425 – 00:38:22.137
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:38:22.321 – 00:38:29.325
Does it ever keep you awake at night? No. I mean, I think that that would be my thing would be, oh, my God, what if someone broke in?
Michael (He/Him)
00:38:30.315 – 00:38:53.675
My business partner, you know, has built it as securely as he can, he tells me, and, you know, he’s. He’s. People can read about what that means on the website itself. So there’s a section there on security.
We use good systems that, you know, we store the data in and we’ve used to build the website. So I’m confident that it’s secure. But, you know, it’s still something that has to be thought about really carefully.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:38:53.795 – 00:39:09.829
I mean, my husband’s in tech and he said he actually thinks that in many ways, storing stuff securely online is often better than secure trying to secure it anywhere else because it’s, you know, it’s often behind all sorts of walls that make it safer for people. For people to be able to store it.
Michael (He/Him)
00:39:09.917 – 00:39:53.951
That’s right.
I mean, I think as long as something’s been carefully thought about when it’s being built digitally, I would, you know, based on my understanding, I would agree with that. And I think, you know, the.
I think I read a while ago that the thing that makes any data storage sort of the main point of risk is really human error. So, you know, you can have really good systems that you use, but if you leave your laptop open, that’s really where you’ve made a mistake.
Or if you store notes in a filing cabinet, that’s good until you leave it unlocked. So it’s that sort of thing.
And obviously there are greater risks associated with digital data storage as well, because there are hackers and there’s malware and all that kind of stuff. But I think often it’s carelessness that leads to data being accessed when it’s not meant to be.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:39:54.063 – 00:39:56.695
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s. That’s the thing, I think, more than anything.
Michael (He/Him)
00:39:56.735 – 00:40:10.607
So I’d urge people to really think about that in a way. What, you know, wherever they’re keeping client notes.
If it’s, you know, if it’s digitally, like part just doing things like password protecting or, you know, closing down your laptop when you’re not using it, things like that. And obviously not leaving things lying around.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:40:10.711 – 00:40:12.647
It’s really not using the same password.
Michael (He/Him)
00:40:12.831 – 00:40:19.377
Yeah, all of that kind of stuff. Or using really secure passwords and not writing them down somewhere and, you know, all those kinds. Kinds of things.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:40:19.481 – 00:40:23.225
Yeah. And does the app have like two factor authentication as well?
Michael (He/Him)
00:40:23.345 – 00:40:29.321
It does now, yeah. We’ve added that in, so that’s optional so people can opt into that. So that is another level of security there.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:40:29.353 – 00:40:52.557
Security. Yeah. Yeah. It’s just all these things you have to think about. It’s a good job you’ve got someone who’s just like a tech partner, isn’t it?
Because it’s a huge amount to keep it safe. And I think that’s, again, it’s something around.
I think it takes a certain type to be able to develop something like this because to a certain extent you’ve got to be sort of comfortable with working this sort of stuff out and working with someone who can. Who can do that.
Michael (He/Him)
00:40:52.661 – 00:40:55.181
Yeah, that’s. That’s not. That’s not my side of.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:40:55.333 – 00:40:57.093
Yeah, you can, you can delegate that.
Michael (He/Him)
00:40:57.269 – 00:41:03.901
I’ve chosen someone who’s. Who’s better placed to do that and I take care of the things that I’m really good at.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:41:04.013 – 00:41:08.869
Yeah. So do you foresee yourself doing any other products, do you think that might be useful to therapists?
Michael (He/Him)
00:41:08.997 – 00:42:33.237
Yeah, that’s a. That’s a really good question. I mean, we’re always thinking about how we can make the plan platform more useful.
We don’t want it to do more than it does. There are loads of practice management software platforms, for example.
We’re not sort of trying to do what they do because I think we’re just trying to do one thing and do it really well. But, yeah, the answer to your question really is yes.
Through this whole kind of experience of thinking about clinical wills and building this app and talking to people, I think I’ve learned that there are potentially other areas in which technology can be used to help therapists and counselors practice more ethically, particularly when it comes to, you know, where data is stored and how that’s done, and maybe also in relation to kind of how we sort of make sure we’re working ethically, because there are lots of things to think about.
And, you know, I’ve been thinking about ways to help people do that, whether it’s through checklists or other tools that, you know less about clinical ethics, but maybe more about ethics surrounding data storage and sort of the kind of processes around Our practices.
So, you know, how, for example, how we, how we show people that we’re working ethically and how do clients know that we are working as ethically as possible? Because I think that that isn’t necessarily something that clients kind of know about us straight away, necessarily.
I mean, you know, people are qualified and they have accreditations, but I think beyond that, there are other things that they could show they’re doing that maybe would help potential clients to have confidence in them as ethical practitioners.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:42:33.301 – 00:42:38.131
Yeah. Sort of feel safer about the way their data is being used and stored, that sort of thing. Is that what you mean?
Michael (He/Him)
00:42:38.163 – 00:42:57.203
Yeah, but you know, making sure that people, you know, are sort of doing enough CPD or have appropriate clinical supervision. And I’m sort of really interested in exploring how we as counselors, like make sure we do all that stuff and then also demonstrate it.
So that’s something I’m sort of thinking about in terms of other things that we might do in the future.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:42:57.299 – 00:43:02.779
Yeah. Yeah, sort of, in a way. Sort of being able to demonstrate to clients that we are who we say we are, in a way.
Michael (He/Him)
00:43:02.827 – 00:43:07.827
Yeah, I think so. Something along those lines or, you know, thinking about how we sort of, how we do that.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:43:07.891 – 00:43:25.251
Yeah.
Which is sort of one answer to this, this sort of age old problem about should the therapy profession be regulated and if we could demonstrate what we’re doing, and I think people could check up on that, that might actually really help to a certain extent resolve some of that problem. Because it’s so easy for people to claim that they’re doing things.
Michael (He/Him)
00:43:25.363 – 00:43:25.843
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:43:25.939 – 00:43:28.133
But actually we can actually demonstrate it.
Michael (He/Him)
00:43:28.259 – 00:44:50.141
I think so.
And look, my feeling is that, you know, they’re, you know, most people working as therapists and counselors are really committed to working ethically and work really hard to work ethically and you know, kind of in a way tick all those kind of ethical boxes. And I think the problem is less.
I mean, there may be people out there who are not doing things they say they are or vice versa, but I think most people are, you know, really committed to working ethically. But maybe what’s where there’s an opportunity to support them is firstly to show that they’re doing that.
So, you know, how do, how do we show potential clients that we’re doing all those things, but maybe also just to help people remember what those things are.
You know, one thing I learned through the clinical will app journey, I guess you can call it, is that people are committed to doing things, but, you know, they often don’t get round to Them and something like a clinical will, you can always put it off, you know, sort of. It’s maybe less important than other things, but it’s actually a really, really easy thing to do with the right technology.
So, you know, I was just really interested in making it as easy as possible because it is, you know, when it’s needed. It’s really, really important, as the story you kind of told illustrates.
And, you know, building something like this platform has just helped people kind of get it done once and for all and then kind of, you know, keep it updated very easily, which means they can sort of clear that off their list of things to do maybe a lot more easily than they might have done in the past. Yeah, And I’d say, yeah, I’m interested in just. Just thinking about where there are other instances of that.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:44:50.253 – 00:45:01.669
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, CPD is one of the obvious ones, isn’t it? Because it’s. So it’s a question that comes up quite often is, well, how do I.
How do I audit my cpd? Yeah, how can I. How can I show that I’ve done it?
Michael (He/Him)
00:45:01.757 – 00:45:02.301
Exactly.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:45:02.373 – 00:45:03.309
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:45:03.357 – 00:45:27.681
So I don’t think the, you know, none of these things are things that people can’t do for themselves, but I think it’s often that they’re. They feel like less important things because you might only want to sort of gather, you know, gather all the information.
You’ll see CPD when you’re asked to demonstrate it. But, you know, I think it’s. It’s good to have it in one place and, you know, know what you’re doing with that. Not.
Not just so you can show it when it’s asked for, but so that, you know how much CPD you’re doing and how much you should be doing.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:45:27.753 – 00:45:31.217
Yeah. Because that’s really potentially demonstrated to clients as well.
Michael (He/Him)
00:45:31.321 – 00:45:40.065
Well, exactly, yeah. Because in a way that’s, you know, that’s. That. That’s what the commitment to ethical practice is. It’s not. It’s not about jumping through hoops.
It’s about doing the things that are really important as.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:45:40.105 – 00:45:40.777
Yeah, yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:45:40.801 – 00:45:51.181
As counselors. And ultimately, if you can show that.
That to potential client, I think that’s really good because it’ll give them confidence in you, but it’ll also remind you that you’re, you know, doing all the things you need to be doing to do the work properly.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:45:51.253 – 00:46:14.219
Yeah. It helps you to feel confident in yourself as well.
And I think that’s just true of, you know, when you’ve got this clinical will set up, you know, you can almost relax.
It becomes just part of your maybe weekly process and you know, it’s set up, then you don’t need to worry about it any longer because I think often these things can be. Until you’ve done them, they’re a bit of a weight on your shoulders. You know, you should be doing them, you haven’t done them.
Michael (He/Him)
00:46:14.307 – 00:46:37.725
Yeah, I agree. It’s the same with, you know, I don’t know, privacy policy or, you know, getting together client agreements.
A few years ago I spent a lot of time doing all of those, sort of getting them all in place and doing it properly.
And you’re right, it was, it was always at the back of my mind and then I finally got around to doing it and I did it properly and now I’ve got them and I can, you know, I can update them where necessary, but I can just, just use them again and again and I never have to give it a second thought.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:46:37.805 – 00:46:40.021
Yeah, yeah, it’s really useful.
Michael (He/Him)
00:46:40.133 – 00:46:40.865
Yeah.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:46:42.325 – 00:46:51.349
Oh, well, thank you. So how can people find you? So the clinical. Will they just go to ClinicalWill app and presumably they can download it so on their phones or is it.
Michael (He/Him)
00:46:51.517 – 00:47:48.391
It’s not an app in the sense that you download it onto your phone, it’s you access it online. So it’s a web based, it’s called a web based application. It just happens that the URL is app.
So you can, you can get, go to it online and that’s where you log in when you need to. And yeah, that’s at ClinicalWorld app. And then it’s really easy to set up an account. You just follow the prompts. You can set up a.
People can set up a free trial if they want to have a look at it before committing to a, you know, a sort of full annual subscription. So you can set up a free trial account and have a play around with it. And obviously if anybody’s got any questions, they can, they can email us.
The email address is on the, on the website. It’s just supportclinicalwill app and it’ll either be me or my business partner at the other end of that, depending on what question people ask.
And you know, similarly, if people want to look me up on Facebook or on LinkedIn, I’m on both of those and I’m always happy to hear from people. I’ll always engage in a conversation.
If people have questions, I’ll answer them directly and they can just find me under my name, Michael Toller, on either of those two platforms.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:47:48.463 – 00:48:03.815
Brilliant. So What I’ll do as well is I’ll put the details in the show notes, so thank you. Can find that as well.
So, Michael, thank you very much for coming along and telling us all about that. It’s been really interesting to talk and just sort of. I’d be really interested to find out, you know, as you develop more stuff as well.
Michael (He/Him)
00:48:03.895 – 00:48:04.383
Thank you.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:48:04.479 – 00:48:20.993
I’m sure everybody else will be too, because I think a lot of us just want to be getting on with working with our clients. And like you said, we want to be ethical, we want to have these things in place, but it sometimes takes time or we don’t know how to do it.
So it sounds like the app’s a really useful thing for people to help people along.
Michael (He/Him)
00:48:21.169 – 00:48:40.105
I agree. Well, you know, the clinical will app certainly seems to be. Because people are using it and they’re coming back and they’re, you know, they’re.
They’re using it year after year. And, you know, I’m sure that there are other ways in which technology can, you know, help people to tighten their ethical practice.
So I’m thinking really carefully about that. So I’ll definitely tell you about it at a point where I have something to.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:48:40.185 – 00:48:40.569
Yeah.
Michael (He/Him)
00:48:40.657 – 00:48:43.545
Something else to share, something concrete to show at people.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:48:43.705 – 00:48:45.937
Brilliant. Oh, well, thank you very much for coming along.
Michael (He/Him)
00:48:46.041 – 00:48:46.497
All right.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:48:46.561 – 00:48:48.329
Yeah. And I’ve put all the details in the show notes.
Michael (He/Him)
00:48:48.377 – 00:48:50.121
Thanks, Josephine. All right, thank you.
Josephine (She/Her)
00:48:50.193 – 00:51:59.075
Okay, thanks. As a therapist, I’ve always loved meeting people and hearing their stories. And being a podcaster is quite similar.
It’s been so interesting to listen to Michael and to hear how his career developed from those early days as an entrepreneur to moving more into caring for people through his psychotherapy business, but also recognizing that he still has that streak of entrepreneurship in him and how fantastic that he’s created the clinical will app, which is really out there to help people.
Yes, it’s commercial in that it needs to be paid for, but with the approach of you pay what you can afford, he’s actually making it really accessible to people who need a service like this. And I was really delighted to meet him and to hear about how he’s developed the app.
Essentially, what he’s done is created a technical solution to what can be a real problem for us, which is how to protect our clients privacy while also ensuring that they are cared for if something happens to us. If this podcast has got you thinking about your clinical will, I have got some help available for you.
I know a paperwork task like this can feel really daunting because you don’t really know where to start or what you should include. I’ve created a training on writing your clinical will.
So rather than having to go away and research what you need to do, you can watch this hour long training and learn what you need to include in your will to be ethical.
You’ll learn things like the differences between an executor and a trustee, what you need to include and how to actually do it, and then you’ll be in a position to use the clinical will app that Michael’s talked about today. If you’d like to access the training, join Therapy Growth Group. It will cost you £50 for a month.
You can come in and just do the training if you want, but while you’re there you’ll also be able to access all my other trainings that I’ve got all about Markup your private practice. And also if you’re setting up a private practice, there’s a whole course on that as well.
Check out the Work With Me page on my website josephinehughes.com for more information. You don’t need to struggle alone and there’s lots of support out there for you to help you build and grow your private practice. Thanks for listening.
Do come and join my Facebook community Goodenough Counsellors and for more information about how I can help you develop your private practice, please Visit my website JosephineHughes.com if you found this episode helpful, I’d love it if you could share it with a fellow therapist or leave a review on your podcast app. And in closing, I’d love to remind you that every single step you make gets you closer to your dream. I really believe you can do it.