Joshua Fletcher
I quite like imposter syndrome and self doubt because it stops you from becoming an egoist as such. I used to think that self doubt as a therapist was something that was bad. Now I realise it’s probably one of the best traits that you can have. So if you’re a therapist with self doubt, imposter syndrome, think people are better than you or whatever, yeah, obviously, if it’s consuming, we work on that, but never lose some of it because having self doubt makes you try. It holds you accountable.
You never think you’re the finished article.
Josephine Hughes
So, today I’m welcoming Joshua Fletcher aka anxiety Josh on Instagram and TikTok, the writer of 3 books on anxiety, and we’re here to talk about his latest book which is a UK Top 100 seller on Amazon and it’s called ‘And how does that make you feel?’ with the subtitle ‘Everything you never wanted to know about therapy’.
So, Josh has a Masters in Counselling Psychology, he’s got extra training in CBT for anxiety and he’s a member of the BACP. He regularly appears in the media discussing mental health with features in The Guardian, The Times and the Daily Mail. He co-hosts a podcast called ‘Disordered’ which is a self help podcast for people who struggle with anxiety. And I want to talk about the numbers, his following on social media is upwards of 250,000 people and his podcast has been loaded over 150,000 times which is amazing.
So welcome Josh. Thanks for coming on to the Good Enough Counsellors podcast and I know everybody’s really looking forward to hearing from you. So, welcome.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. Hi, Josephine. Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. Yeah.
Thanks. Also, what a lovely introduction. Can I implore you to introduce me to every room I walk into? Everyone stops. 60 seconds of introduction and then I’ll walk in.
No. Thank you.
Josephine Hughes
That’s alright. Gleaned gleaned from what’s available about you online. So, yeah. So I’m gonna start by asking you a question I know you’re not even gonna be able to answer.
Joshua Fletcher
Oh, no.
Josephine Hughes
Which you may have guessed. Who is Daphne?
Joshua Fletcher
Nope.
Josephine Hughes
Nope.
Joshua Fletcher
And that’s the end of the podcast. Thanks for having me on. See you later.
Josephine Hughes
Oh, dear. I knew you would. I knew you’d say that because obviously confidentiality is a really big part of the whole book. I mean, it’s quite a focus throughout the book, isn’t it? You talk about confidentiality quite a lot.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. I mean, with the book and How Does That Make You Feel? was basically a book written to for therapists, for people who are interested in therapy, for people who’ve been to therapy, people who struggle with anxiety, because that’s my passion, providing psychoeducation, and I wanted to write something that was a bit different from the usual self help, you know, because, you know, if you’re a therapist listening, you’ve probably, you know, you’ve gone through loads of books, some of them are fascinating, interesting. I’ve got loads of counselling books with sticky notes and stuff on, but they’re a type of book, aren’t they? I wanted to write, I wanted to write a book that was just easy reading, fun, and allow people to feel seen, and also to practise what I preach, which is, you know, I believe the best therapists are human authentic therapists that come with flaws, warts and all.
I hear I hear a lot from anxious people, not anxious therapists, you know, am I good enough, this and that. And I just thought, well, I’m gonna just write what I do and see what happens. Confidentiality is a big one, of course. There was a rigorous ethical process around it, which I can talk more about later on in the podcast if you’d like. But, you know, you don’t, you don’t put a book to a publication without obtaining consent and, well, multiple consent as well and that was an ongoing process and putting in those ethical considerations.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. Because I mean one of the people asked, and I think we need to really get this out of the way right at the start, they sort of said how did you remember word for word what your client said and the gestures, the action and the actions they showed, and your own verbal responses? So let’s just get that one out of the way.
Joshua Fletcher
No, no is the answer to that. No. I do it is not word for word. It’s more of a paraphrasing. The the people in this book, the client in air quotes case studies that is based on, is they’re actually an amalgamation
Josephine Hughes
Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
Of several stories in here and several things. They’re not just one person, and sorry to spoil that. But, obviously, you have to do everything, you have to do various ethical things, and the most ethical thing I could do was not make the 4 people in this book based on 4 individuals. Yes. That’s right.
But they are an amalgamation of different people, different stories, and things I hear in this practice. Obviously, I’ve made sure clients past and present, made sure they’re aware of this, obtained consent all the way through it. Been so well supported through it, and, yeah, everyone’s on board with it, and, they’re happy with the outcome. Spoiler there. To break some of the Mirage, they’re not all just one person.
I get loads of people emailing stuff like, who is it? I’ve tried to Google who it was. I was like, yeah. Yeah. Of course you tried to Google who it was.
So as a compliment to the writing, thank you. But, no, there aren’t transcripts I’ve written up, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Josephine Hughes
I know. And it’s sort of a shame to spoil the illusion because I sort of had this idea, especially with the lighter thing, that it must have been Dame Helen Mirren. And I thought, no no, it obviously isn’t because that is obviously not a real person but it still makes you sort of think, oh, well, I wonder, you know, you do like to speculate, don’t you? I don’t think we’d be human if we didn’t.
Joshua Fletcher
No. Of course. That’s what I wanted as well. I wanted to speculate and think about it, and I’m just trying to, I was trying to be a bit shrewd, I think. And I think we’re all fascinated by celebrity culture as well.
So I’ve got one of the client cases. If you’ve not read the book, by the way, there’s 4 different client case studies. The first one we’re introduced to is someone called Daphne, who is a Hollywood celebrity actress, the second one is a man called Levi who is a security doorman of a nightclub, The 3rd person is Zara, who’s a is a newly qualified doctor and and GP, and the 4th one is a young lad called Noah who moves to the city, wants to build up the confidence to reveal the secret that he’s been holding on to. And they all have different things that they bring to therapy, and throughout the book, I wanted to use these client case studies as a stealth help kind of device. So I talk about what therapy is like, the inner voices of the therapists, which I’m sure we’ll talk about, and dropping lots of psychoeducation about anxiety disorders, which is what I love, you know.
It’s not great when you’re out with your mates, you know, like, can we talk about anxiety disorders? Like, no mate, just watch the football. I’m fine. But, yeah, just like I’ve fixed stuff like OCD, panic disorder, panic attacks, social anxiety, depression, and used these client case studies to kind of explain, look, this is how it can present. Yeah.
So that’s what I’ve used these client case studies in air quotes for.
Josephine Hughes
I was gonna say, it must have been quite difficult though, that whole publishing process. I’ve got an article coming out shortly and, you know, I had to obtain permission for literally everything I said about them and I hadn’t sort of really been aware of of really how much permission I would need to seek, in order to be published and, you know, because you’re working with publishing professionals as opposed to therapy professionals. Was there some guidance for you in how to sort of share? Did they have a legal department? I mean, how did it work with all that sort of stuff?
Joshua Fletcher
Oh, yeah. They’ve got a huge legal department. Obviously, as a publisher, they’ve got to do their due diligence to make sure that they don’t get sued. Yeah. Of course.
But I worked with my own supervisor, informed my own membership body, and it was very similar to when I did my master’s thesis. I did my master’s thesis on the experiences of people with panic disorder seeking treatment. Yeah. And you have to go through the ethics department on that, not only obtaining initial consent, continuous consent and the right to withdraw, and that’s always always been there. As well as things like aftercare, providing, you know, the door’s always open for anyone who feels that.
But I’ve written it in a way where no one can identify themselves. And you would yeah.
Josephine Hughes
And like I say, it’s it’s amalgamation of different people, isn’t it? So
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. Yeah. And I sent it out to all clients past previous, like, this is the project I’m doing. It’s not about you.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
But if you do have any qualms about it, just let me know. You know? Yeah. And this was an ongoing thing for 2 years. That is an interesting one, particularly on a therapist podcast.
You know, I’ve been on many podcasts and people are like, oh, they are just fair enough. I’m sure it’s alright. But actually, as therapists, we’re like, I wonder if he did do that? And I’ll say, a lot of work. Yes.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. Sounds like it.
Joshua Fletcher
A lot of work. And then it’s just crossing my fingers. Anyone who’s done their thesis or masters and they’ve interviewed people, maybe they’ve done a phenomenological analysis or had volunteers just crossing their fingers, like, 2 days before submission, like, don’t pull out, please don’t, but at the same time respecting, like, actually, well, if you if you if you do, that’s fine.
Josephine Hughes
Because I know this is something that you’ve talked about quite a lot. I mean, I’m veering off a little bit, but, and it does sort of appear a little bit in the book, is your sort of concern about quackery, shall we say. People who who maybe aren’t qualified therapists, aren’t necessarily, very ethical and that part of being in, sort of, in the media or, you know, as somebody who’s well known as a therapist, that this is actually something that you’ve you’ve almost, sort of, I wouldn’t say exactly complained about, but certainly got a concern about, haven’t you, about how people might be persuaded to work with people who aren’t necessarily qualified?
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. It’s a concern for me, and for others and my colleagues too. It’s a combination of things, isn’t it? It’s like access to therapy for people in the UK. It is very tricky, and there’s long waiting lists. Mhmm. We’re not necessarily educated on the different modalities of therapy.
Josephine Hughes
Mhmm.
Joshua Fletcher
I’ve had some great therapy and I’ve had some horrendous therapy, and it’s about finding the right one, so I write about that. It breaks my heart when people go to therapy once and there’s no therapeutic connection or the modality wasn’t correct. Mhmm.
Josephine Hughes
And I
Joshua Fletcher
write about this in the book as well, and I’m like, oh, I’ve tried therapy, it wasn’t for me. Mhmm. And I think I use an analogy in the book and I, it’s like saying you tried sport once and all you tried was lawn balls. Yeah. Which is nothing against lawn bowls, you know?
Yeah. You know? But you couldn’t say the whole of sport was rubbish because you didn’t like lawn bowls. Yeah. And so I wanted to put that in there, so I wanted to celebrate therapy and when therapy works.
Josephine Hughes
There’s
Joshua Fletcher
a lot of quackery on there. I am online and I do prance around in front of a camera for Instagram and all that stuff, providing the psycho education that I’m passionate about. But in that sphere it’s a double edged sword, so you’ve got some amazed some amazing information there from from people passionate about their work, and then you’ve got, you know, a breadth of misinformation, particularly around mental health, you know, and particularly around well, in my world, it’s anxiety. You know, you’ve got lots of encouraging compulsive behaviours and safety behaviours, which aren’t gonna help people to get better. And, obviously, it’s a very monetized world to be in, says the guy sitting on a podcast promoting his book.
But I mean, like, the people who, who, like, offer things, like, behind paywalls and subscriptions and things like that, and I have the magic technique to help you get better. I find that really, you know, really distressing. But on the plus side, there’s some really good stuff out there as well.
Josephine Hughes
It’s a difficult one, isn’t it? Because I mean, especially for you because you see people day in day out who are really suffering. And so to think that they’re being sold maybe a quick fix
Joshua Fletcher
you know, we’re the only one of the few, particularly prevalent because, you know, we’re the only one of the few, developed western countries where therapy isn’t regulated. So, you know, anyone can call themselves a therapist and that does fry me. But I’m not gonna go on that ranty tangent today.
Josephine Hughes
Another time, maybe. Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Josephine Hughes
So I just I wanna I wanna circle back, actually, because this is a question that, I think I get this much, much less than you, I would imagine, but, you know, I do get people who say oh, it’s so amazing to meet you face to face’, because, you know, I’ve got very, compared to you, very very small sort of, you know, following, but with amongst counsellors I’m sort of reasonably well known. I think that’s sort of like it can be quite challenging. I noticed sort of in the Facebook groups you’re quite humorous in coping with that sort of fandom or adulation. What’s it like to to sort of have that in, sort of, in the therapy community or, you know, a bit wider because you have such a large following on, as a sort of influencer
Joshua Fletcher
Influencer. It’s content creator now, Josephine. Come on. Don’t use that word. Yeah.
Yeah. It’s a strange one. It’s not the level of fandom that you think. I like respect, the respect I receive and I like it and actually it brings out my imposter syndrome. You know, when you get people who perhaps more experienced than me, trained in things I’m not trained in Mhmm.
And they come up to me and say, you know, it’s really lovely to meet. It’s a privilege. And I’m thinking, you’re way more experienced than I am, you know, and you’re probably better than me. But, you know, thank you and I appreciate it. I don’t, I quite like impostor syndrome and self doubt because it stops you from becoming an egoist as such.
Don’t get me wrong. There’s an ego there. But it’s not like keeping it in check. And I think it’s – I used to think that self doubt as a therapist was something that was bad. Now I realise it’s probably one of the best traits that you can have.
So if you’re a therapist with self doubt, imposter syndrome, think people are better than you or whatever, Yeah. Obviously, if it’s consuming, we work on that, but never lose some of it because having self doubt makes you try. It holds you accountable. You never think you’re the finished article. I saw a therapist once many years ago, and I walked in and the whole therapy room was just like a shrine to this person’s achievements.
And I was like, I’m not gonna connect with this person. I’m already scared of the power dynamic. I already have a problem with authority. Yeah. You know?
Whereas some of the best therapy I’ve had is with a newly qualified therapist who’s really enthusiastic, trying to do everything right, and made me feel comfortable, and I and I much prefer that than Jimmy 50 degrees on the wall, you know, I don’t yeah.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. I think it’s really interesting as well because I think there’s something around that need to display all your things on the wall, your certificates on the wall, that perhaps it’s actually indicative of impostor syndrome. Maybe. In the most sort of way. Yeah.
Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. It could be. Do you know what? So on my wall I’ve got the British history timeline that I’m trying to memorise and some silhouette art of Lord of the Rings, Stranger Things, and Harry Potter, and a picture of my brother and some plants. Yeah.
Josephine Hughes
We read about the plants, don’t we?
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. Yeah. Always the plants. Yeah. Yeah.
Are yours almost dying like mine? They always have. I never
Josephine Hughes
kept you alive. Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
Welcome a client in. Here’s a nurturing place where we get better. And they just look around, there’s just like a dead hydrangea in the corner.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. I mean, I, I’ve been quite lucky that I’ve sort of worked with people who’ve kept the plants, you know, I’ve rented rooms and she’s actually got green fingers, so fortunately I don’t have to keep them alive myself. But like that I think the really lovely thing and I mean it’s interesting actually because you’ve described the way your critic is, but actually towards the end of the book your critic was making me laugh out loud because of the sort of some of the things that he was saying. Because you have got that sort of ability to to sort of poke a bit in front of you at yourself really when you use the inner voice of the critic. But I think that’s one of the really lovely things about the book is we get these different conversations.
And actually before before I came on the podcast, because I was a bit late getting ready for it, to be honest, and I had about 10 minutes to eat my dinner before we came on to
Joshua Fletcher
Me too. Yeah. I I can still feel it digest. Oh, thanks for that. Biology.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. I’m thinking, oh, this is biology speaking and then I had my ryvita and I spilt hummus on my hands and I oh, there you go. You know, it’s like because you say you’ve got this change of of shirts and everything and and one of the sort of funny things in the book is how Levi keeps surprising you and making you spill your food as he comes
Joshua Fletcher
in through
Josephine Hughes
the door.
Joshua Fletcher
Yogurt, soup, everything. Yeah. Yeah. So Levi’s the bouncer client case study who’s big and scary and, to provide a bit more context to what we’re talking about. One of the USPs of the book is that I share with you my inner voices of the therapist, and there’s 13 of them.
I cannot even remember them. Yeah. There’s all of them. There’s anxiety. So you know, the voice of worry that’s talking.
I want you to imagine all these voices around a thought table in your brain. The chair of the meeting is volition, which is the voice that chooses the appropriate voice to go with. Mhmm. This applies not just in the therapy room, but in life. But, yeah, volition is the chair, and then you’ve got an anxious voice who’s worried and shouting over everyone.
Biology, what Josephine just referred to, particularly if you’re a therapist who desperately needs a wee. And you’re like, why did I drink 2 coffees? And then let the client in, what am I doing? Which leads to critic. And critic’s like, why did you have 2 coffees?
Let me try and, you know, And and then anxiety voices, you know, holding your wee in is bad for you. You’re gonna, your prostate is gonna explode and all that stuff. You’ve got the voice of detective. That’s that voice that we all have as therapists. We wanna find out more and search for meaning.
Analytical voice, which is trying to use counselling theory to pair up like, you know, oh, here’s this person’s conditions of worth or their schema or this can add to the formulation that we’re doing in CBT or or whatever. You’ve got compassionate voice which is the voice that makes a great therapist, along with empathy voice. Oh, I’m going through them here. I’m going monoroll. I should have written them down.
And you got empathy voice. My favourite voice voices are reverence. It’s just when we get intrusive, weird thoughts. I put that in the book. Just like, why am I thinking about that now?
You know, yeah, yeah.
Josephine Hughes
It is quite it is quite funny though, is
Joshua Fletcher
to your reference. Yeah. Yeah. And I have a lot of people message me like, I’m so glad you included that. I thought I was being weird.
I wasn’t being a good enough counsellor. Yes. Just got good enough counsellor into the title of the podcast. They’ve literally said I’m not a good enough counsellor because I’m having these thoughts. Like, everyone gets those thoughts.
You listen to volition though, and what gives you go with volition. Decide where to put your attention because we’re gonna get those thoughts. I get them in the therapy room still. I’m bad at many things in life, but therapy is something I’m pretty good at. And one of the best parts of being a good therapist is realising that, woah, you’re gonna have all these things and thoughts going on in your head, but going with volition and going with what feels right at that moment for your client.
Josephine Hughes
Because what you haven’t mentioned is intuition. And it I I I’m sort of interested that you said volition’s in charge because often I don’t know often, but when I was reading it I was sort of thinking quite often, you go with that intuition, don’t you? Go with what intuition says?
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. Intuition. Yeah. I forgot about that. That’s the one I forgot.
Thanks, Josephine. Intuition. Yeah. The nudge from the gut where it just feels right and that happens in the therapy room sometimes. You know, not all the time, but there’s sometimes your intuition just says against rhyme and reason, why not try this?
You know? And I think intuition often crops up as a result of, you know, good relational depth that you have with a client. And, yeah, it crops up now and then in the book, particularly at poignant points.
Josephine Hughes
It’s really really interesting because what came up for me then was thinking about sometimes when I’ve gone with my intuition and I’ve got it wrong. I can remember one particular occasion I went to ask this question and I thought this is either going to be the most amazing intervention ever or it’s going to be a total disaster and it was the second it was a total disaster. Oh dear. And I, you know, I have become one of those therapists where people say how could a therapist have ever said that? You know, and and and I look back on that and think, oh dear.
Have you had anything where you look back and you just think, oh my goodness.
Joshua Fletcher
Oh, it’s happened to me. Oh, loads. All the time. And it will don’t get me wrong. I’m not just rolling the dice and taking gambles every 3 minutes with clients.
But, like, yeah, when you get to a certain point, yeah, you’re right. It feels like this is either gonna, a, like, make a breakthrough or go the other way. I can remember one particularly in my personal life. I was in personal therapy. I’ve been through lots of trauma myself, and was afraid to open up about it because I’m a 6 foot 2 northern man.
And I just thought, ” I’ll give it a go, and I just splurged and told her everything. And was like, this is what’s happened, and it was you know? And and and she kept the space so beautifully and made me feel safe. And then, I mean, you couldn’t have summarised everything I’d splurged if you tried. And so she sat there after I finished speaking, tears down my face, anxious, feeling very vulnerable.
And she just took a moment, contemplated what I said, and she said, that sounds really shit. And it was a lovely thing to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I tried that 3 weeks later and the other person was like, why do you swear? Whoops. Oh,
Josephine Hughes
It’s amazing. It just goes to show how it’s like, it’s the moment, isn’t it? And it’s that relationship and yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. I really liked how authentic it was when she said it. She’s like, that sounds really shit. Yeah. Because there’s nothing.
There’s nothing you can you know, you can, you can fall back on the old, oh, it sounds like that you’ve been through trauma, wouldn’t it? Well, yeah, of course. But it’s just I’ve got nothing to say, but I’m gonna say something, and I’m gonna say and I’m gonna say the most authentic thing I can. And it and it worked. It was lovely.
Yeah.
Josephine Hughes
There’s just nothing like that empathy when somebody really shows you that compassion and empathy together. It’s just it’s just nothing like it, is it? No. I think that’s the heart of therapy to be shown that. Yeah.
No. Yeah. And so someone actually asked, and this is going back to sort of thinking about you being quite well known. I mean, obviously we had your reaction, you sort of described how you reacted when the door opened and this famous actress suddenly appeared and said ‘hi’, you know, I think I’m a bit late for the appointment. And obviously there was that part of you that was like, oh my god this is someone really famous!’ Do do you think you being well known has an impact on because obviously you must attract, because you’re well known, you attract particular types of people like somebody who’s famous, but also does it interfere in any way you being well known because people see such a lot of you outside of therapy on Instagram and that sort of stuff?
Joshua Fletcher
Well, in terms of how does it mean that people knowing who I am Yeah. Outside of this, how does it affect the therapy here? It’s a really good question. I think for me this is where specialising in a niche really helps. So I’ve sort of not always been a notable figure in our space, but when I because I specialise in anxiety disorders, who’s openly discussed my own past with anxiety disorders.
I think it can help people know who I am because it cuts like, there’s a trust there that’s built. Obviously, you’ve gotta build the trust in the therapy room, but I think me being open and honest, as a man as well, when I see when I see guys, it’s like differs a bit to seeing guys on my training where it take took a long a long while to establish the trust, but it was here it’s like, oh, here’s a guy who’s been vulnerable in public. I feel more comfortable now to open up because I know he has. I found that particularly.
Josephine Hughes
That’s really interesting.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. And not just with guys and people like that. On the so that’s lovely. When people come and they expect they know what kind of therapy I am, they kind of seen what I’m like, my personality, which I like to think I’m very authentic in and outside the therapy room. On the flip side though is that if you are known on social media or people seeing you on TV or whatnot, there’s can be a tendency to maybe put someone who you’ve seen put a lot of hope on that person to help fix you or put you on some kind of pedestal and that can actually
Josephine Hughes
Get in the way?
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. Get in the way. Yeah. Yeah. Why haven’t you fixed me yet?
You’re supposed to be the best at this. And I’m like, well, you know
Josephine Hughes
And coming back to that impostor syndrome as well, how that must make you feel that someone’s coming in with a great deal of expectation as well. There’s a sort of sense of maybe pressure to somehow measure up to people’s expectations. I don’t know if you feel that, if it makes you anxious or?
Joshua Fletcher
Absolutely. Yeah. My imposter syndrome really comes out when I still struggle with claustrophobia quite a bit. I have sensory issues because of autism. When I feel trapped or in a space where I can’t get out or whatever, I’m really anxious and quite visibly.
And, yeah, that might happen in public. Someone might see me being anxious and stuff, and I think I used to be like ashamed of that and feel like a fraud, but now I’m like, nah, you know, that’s just my thing that I’m dealing with. And I say that to any other therapist who struggles with anxiety. If you struggle with panic attacks, intrusive thoughts, OCD, I’m really into reading about PMDD and the menopause and perimenopause at the moment because it overlaps with anxiety disorders quite a lot. That doesn’t make you any less of a therapist.
If anything it gives you more empathy and the ability to step more into the frame of reference of your anxious clients. And I’ve had to reframe that to myself.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. Because I was gonna say, I don’t know about what you were taught, but often people are taught that if they’ve actually experienced they’ve got lived experience of something that then gets in the way of offering therapy. So I think sometimes people shy away from a niche and and, you know, I help people with marketing their private practices and often find when when I actually talk to them and they talk about their favourite clients who they’ve worked with, it’s usually someone who fits into that space of something that they’ve actually experienced themselves and yet we’re taught that this is something that gets in the way. And have you experienced what’s your sort of thinking about that?
Joshua Fletcher
It can be a gift and a curse. I think I’ve heard it can really help but it can also not. So like, I have the utmost respect for people who specialise in grief. I couldn’t. I still work on my own grief.
I talk about it in the book a bit. I imagine seeing 5 clients a day talking about grief, I couldn’t do it, I couldn’t do it and if you’re doing that, fair play. Whereas I know people, I know therapists who have become grief specialists, so working for Cruse Bereavement, people like that because of their own grief And I sit I just sit there and marvel. I’m like, that’s incredible, you know? So it depends, like, I’ve lived experience for grief but I would not be great at specialising in it.
Don’t get me wrong, grief comes up in the therapy room as anything does but you know, when it’s the specific focus of therapy like going to places like Cruse bereavement and things like that I probably wouldn’t help me, It just depends. Also, if you’re a therapist who is still learning or to just face a therapist who hasn’t got much empathy, you might struggle to step into the other person’s frame of reference because everything that they’re talking about is firmly planting you in your own because you can relate to it and it brings up so much power of, and reminders. So that’s how it can also go against you. So it depends. Like, I when I work with people with OCD, I know what it’s like to have OCD.
I’ll have it for the rest of my life and manage it very well. But when someone’s talking about it, it’s really powerful because then it’s almost like, oh, yeah. And it sounds like and I imagine it’s like this, and they’re like, oh my god. Yeah. You’ve nailed it.
I was like, yeah. I know. I’ve been there. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Josephine Hughes
I am because I think that’s part of it. Sometimes it gives you that almost, like, advanced empathy, doesn’t it? Because you can almost imagine where people are going with it. You have to check it out with them because you don’t know for sure, but often you can you’re pretty much sort of familiar with where it might take them. I think it does give you that almost fluidity in working with someone perhaps.
That’s been my experience in terms of working with what’s been in my experience. Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. And I always it depends what kind of therapist you wanna be, but I think a niche is helpful, particularly from that point of view.
Josephine Hughes
And what made you decide on anxiety then? Because, obviously, you didn’t want to you know, grief wasn’t a possibility.
Joshua Fletcher
Trauma informed was already taken, so I did not imagine. Yeah. No. No.
Josephine Hughes
So, yeah. Just to just to put a little interjection in at this point is that in one part of the book, Josh describes the different modalities and talks about the different fashions and says he thinks the latest fashion is going to be children informed. But I have to say, with my finger on the pulse, I think the latest fashion is IFS, actually. I think it’s internal family systems.
Joshua Fletcher
No. You’re right. You’re so right. It is, internal and and in the anxiety disorder world, it’s, inference based CBT, I CBT. So those 2 will be the latest fashions that we’ll be seeing this summer.
Josephine Hughes
So going back to sort of anxiety, obviously, trauma informed was taken. So go on. Tell us about what made you decide to become anxiety Josh.
Joshua Fletcher
I donned the cape of anxiety Josh, because when I was younger, it was in my young twenties, I was diagnosed with 3 different anxiety disorders, very accurate anxiety disorders as well. So if anyone is part of the drop the disordered brigade, you know, listen up because actually this saved my life. I was diagnosed with panic disorder, with agoraphobia, obsessive compulsive disorder and GAD, generalised anxiety. I was not very well. This happened after a nervous breakdown.
I was looking after my terminally unwell brother. I just recently left uni with no money, a weird cannabis addiction, and broke up with my girlfriend, moved back in with my mom. Then my younger brother, yeah, got diagnosed with terminal cancer at the age of 14 years old. Then I went and got, started a job at a pupil referral unit, which won’t surprise you, it was quite a stressful job. I love that job, but it was quite a stressful job.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
And one day in the morning, I still remember the moment, I walked into the staff room at the pupil referral unit, probably Wednesday or something like that, I don’t know, made a cup of tea and I was stirring the tea bag, dropped the spoon, made a louder bang than usual, and I just looked up and everything looked weird.
Josephine Hughes
I
Joshua Fletcher
was like oh my god, what have I done? Like my whole reality looked different. I now know this was the start of dissociation and a panic attack. I had no idea what was going on then. I I wasn’t really struggling with anxiety or anything.
I was just really stressed and burnt out being a carer in a job. So I had no idea. I felt like I wasn’t in my own body. People’s faces looked like clay. I was really scared.
Josephine Hughes
Really freaked you out I should think. Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
It really did. I went home. My mum picked me up. I didn’t leave the house for 6 months. That’s the agoraphobia.
Also OCD because I was ruminating and trying to fix myself. I became very unwell. And then I discovered the works of one of my heroes, Dr Claire Weeks, who is an Australian psychologist. I think she died in, like, the eighties or something. She’s my hero.
Yeah. And she wrote a book about basically anxiety disorders and what they look like. And I was like, oh oh, this is what anxiety is. I’ve never really used the word anxiety until I actually read about what it was. Then I found some other books as well.
I read one by Paul David and this was like 12 years ago, so I said no like social media or anything like that. I was just doing all these things the best I can. Trolling forums, frightening myself on forums, until I found the psychoeducation where someone was telling me what was up with me. And that started my recovery. I was like, oh, I’m not going bananas, and this is a thing that happens.
And yeah. I was a teacher at the time. I loved teaching, but there was no information for me. And I was very lucky actually that I stumbled across this information because my doctors didn’t help. So I was a teacher, that was it, and then I thought how can I combine my love for teaching with how passionate I am that I was not educated about this?
So I’d studied to be a therapist and that’s how it started. That’s how anxiety Josh started. Actually, no. Anxiety Josh, the name, started at the beginning of COVID where my friend says, are you on social media? I was like, no.
He’s like, you should do an Instagram. Now is a good time. I was like, why? He’s like, because everyone’s gonna lose their minds because they’re going into quarantine. I was like, okay.
And so I just started doing videos, reassuring videos about anxiety, what it looks like, agoraphobia, how it’s exacerbated, and it went from there.
Josephine Hughes
I was gonna say it must have really taken off though for you to have built up this massive following in sort of quite a short time, really, because it’s only sort of 4 years, really, since the start of COVID. So and and is it all sort of been videos? What sort of things do you do to get people to follow you?
Joshua Fletcher
Videos, just some carousel posts with the little nuggets of information that you can slide across and and absorb them. I use humour a lot in my social media. I like people to feel seen. Yeah. That’s what I wanted to do.
I think the majority we can’t speak for everyone, but the majority of people when they see that and know that I’m someone who’s been through it and are making a laugh and a joke about it and getting on my life, I think for a lot of people that’s very assuring, and it gives them hope and that’s why I like to be.
Josephine Hughes
I love Brene Brown, and I think this is sort of like the point that Brene makes, is that when you’re vulnerable, when you’re prepared to be vulnerable, that is such a great leveller, isn’t it? And this is what really helps us to make connections with each other, is when we’re prepared to be vulnerable, when we’re prepared to open up, it enables other people to be vulnerable. I mean, Rogers would have said it’s congruence, you know, deep deep congruence begets more congruence, which begets more congruence, But I think Brene has brought it up to date and talks about vulnerability, and I think this is often what’s missing in the this whole celebrity culture, isn’t it? Is that people, especially on Instagram, aren’t particularly vulnerable, and you’re actually breaking through that mould in order to help people be real, aren’t you? So.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. Being authentically vulnerable. I think there is a trend at the moment on social media with people recording themselves crying in their cars.
Josephine Hughes
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not quite what I’m talking about.
Joshua Fletcher
Why did she break up with me? Yeah. But yeah, in general it’s, oh yeah, thanks. I’m trying. I used to be really socially anxious, I was never really that I think for me I just something just clicked.
I lost my brother and lost my dad and lost my grandma on the space for several years, the anxiety disorder, something like that, and I think when I lost them I was like it just doesn’t really matter what people think. Like, I care what people think. If I care and this is gonna sound really bad, I care what people think when I really value and respect them. So like I was at a conference the other day and, no this last year actually, I think David Veal was there and some people, well respected people, and I was like, now I suddenly really care what people think.
Josephine Hughes
What do you think?
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. But general day to day stuff, like, no, I don’t, you know, I’ve I’ve just put my authentic self out there and in the age of social media, you’re just a drop in the ocean, you know. You’re you’re not you’re not doing Parkinson live on a Saturday night where everyone’s watching you. You’re just someone you someone else scrolls past, and if you catch their eye for a bit, that’s great.
Josephine Hughes
I I think that’s a really reassuring thing and I’d really love my listeners to hear that because one of the things that therapists really really worry about, the ones that I work with, because obviously I work with a lot of people who don’t feel very confident, don’t feel good enough, is they’re so worried about what people will think And to a certain extent, I think what what you’ve said is you’re just a drop in the ocean. People just scroll past. People don’t really even notice half the time, do they?
Joshua Fletcher
No. Everyone’s everyone’s just focused on themselves and I don’t mean that in a bad way. Just like I think in everyone’s default mode network is to kinda go in and and consider what they need, you know, whether it’s basic needs or whatever or daydreaming or whatever. But of course we are all people with imposter syndrome, social anxiety, things like that, where our fawn response has been conditioned usually when we’re younger by unreasonable households or being bullied or being in abusive relationships. When that foreign response is conditioned, of course, it’s gonna fire off when you’re walking through Tesco or if you slightly do something brave and go to some pub you know or do something incredibly brave and do some public speaking and put yourself out there.
Your foreign response is gonna think just warn you and suggest to you what if all these people are like those unreasonable people? No, they don’t know you, it’s okay, you’re alright. One of them might be a knob but the vast majority won’t be and actually I found that most people have empathy. Yes. Really is.
Josephine Hughes
So I’ve got so much going through my head I’m trying to trying to think because one of the things I wondered actually is you mentioned about autism as well and I I sort of do wonder sometimes whether because often we just say things as they are and I think sometimes that can actually help us on social media and that, you know, we’ll just well, this is how it is.
Joshua Fletcher
It just depends on obviously, it’s a huge neurodiverse spectrum. Some people are, you know, on one on one end will have, you know, active mutism where they just won’t say anything and others do. Mine was different. Mine just more I just became more confident after actually going to therapy and working on my stuff and challenging my identity and the unhelpful parts of my identity. And I just got a bit more confident with that and trying to over the last year focusing more on what the good things people say to you.
Whereas opposed I was that guy, you know, of a 100 people a 100 people in the room clapping and then one person isn’t, and spending all weekend, like, why didn’t that one person clap? What did I do? Or same with book book reviews, you know, thankfully I had some amazing reviews from how does that make you feel, like, overwhelming partly positive reviews. And like any book, you know, you’re gonna get people that don’t like it. From my previous books I used to worry about why did that person not like me?
As opposed to focusing on the 99% people that really enjoyed it. What’s changed for me is actually focusing on the positives, actively focusing on the positives, and really trying to, and making it a habit, and never going on Goodreads. Yeah. They mess us up. Here’s a 5,000 word essay on why I didn’t like this person’s book.
Josephine Hughes
And yeah. Because I don’t think that helps really, does it? And, there’s something about letting go of it, isn’t there, once it’s out there that, you know, you focus on the sort of creating. And once it’s created, you actually haven’t got any control over how it’s going to be received, have you?
Joshua Fletcher
No. I just read it over and over again. I thought I’m happy with that. Do you know what’s really surprised me actually, Josephine, is that I thought the book wouldn’t go down well with therapists and the opposite happened. And I thought it would be a book popular amongst maybe the general public, and then therapists turn around and go, oh, this is heresy.
What are you doing? And I didn’t want them to think that. I’ve not written it purposely controversial. I just wanted to show some rawness and realness, and actually the support from pretty much every therapist spoken to has been wonderful. But even for the therapist that probably doesn’t like it, they’ve been respectful enough to not tell me.
Well, I think
Josephine Hughes
it is that rawness and realness and it it he’s, like, you know, it’s a bit like lifting the curtain at the end of, The Wizard of Oz. You know, you sort of see who’s this magician behind the
Joshua Fletcher
chair behind
Josephine Hughes
the curtain.
Joshua Fletcher
I use that analogy a lot for OCD. It’s a good one, isn’t it? It’s like always big and scary, then you look behind and say, oh.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. That’s that’s all you are.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. Yeah.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. So I guess, I mean, this is a very personal question and someone’s sort of asked, you know, how are you getting on without your brother? And I was wondering, you know, towards the end of the book when you talk about you going for your interview with the, to go on your, I guess, your Counseling Psychology Masters and your intuition is about talking about your brother as to why you decided to go into therapy. And I suppose when I read that I sort of was wondering about it, and because you have been sort of very, sort of, successful, you know, you have published books, you have got, hopefully a thriving practice. Now you’ve got all these followers.
I hope that’s the case, I’m making an assumption there. But do you think it’s I guess I suppose you’re having listened to you, is it your brother’s death that motivated you or is it more that whole what you’ve just described about your anxiety and wanting to to reach out to people in that sense?
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. I think losing my brother is a big motivator. I think it’s one of the sides of grief that drives me. I think I wasn’t actually very ambitious when my brother was around. I was quite content.
My ambition was to be a teacher and chill out and that’d be great, you know. And I was really excited to have that. I think when I lost Harry, I think it was something part of me died with it. And I think what I’ve done and revealed in my own therapy is that I try to fill that void by trying to push and drive myself as much as I can, and actually make my existence more worthwhile to me, probably because of a survivor, you know, a lingering survivor guilt. And just want to do something quite quite special, you know.
All my loved ones tell me that I need to slow down and stop and do these things, that I’ve already achieved that. But I think losing my brother, I think and I’m still in therapy, I love therapy, but, like, I haven’t covered that actually, you know, there’s I try to fill some of the void by trying to be extraordinary, and most part of my homework in therapy is to not be is to realise it’s okay just being ordinary. But, yeah, I think the manner in which I lost him as well was very harrowing. Yeah. I don’t know.
I try to keep him with me as close as I can. I am not a spiritual or religious person, so I don’t see him glimmering in the trees, and I don’t hear him talking to me. But I would like to see sometimes since his illness and since his passing and what I’ve done and this wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t have passed away or become ill, I’d like sometimes to imagine that I see him in the crevices of people’s smiles when they’re doing really well in their anxiety therapy, when they’ve done something really brave, I think, well, that there’s something in that, isn’t there?
Josephine Hughes
I think it’s, I really identify with what you’re saying about this drive, and it can be very intense, can’t it, to want to work and and and want to, you know and it’s fun as well. I mean, it’s it’s I think it’s it’s fun to write, it’s fun to create, it’s fun to be out there on social media and do that sort of stuff. But it can be difficult to hold it back sometimes, I think.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. I’ve got more into my mindfulness recently. That was a trend, a trend, a fashion wasn’t it, Nada?
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
I’ve got into my mindfulness recently, because I think when you are driven and you are and I’ve got very obsessive fixating tendencies. Wow. How did I develop OCD? Sometimes when you’re so driven and you’re so chased and this applies to anyone though. If you’re chasing a feeling of trying to feel enough to try to satisfy that inner satiation of trying to feel enough.
You miss the world going by now and then, and I’m guilty of that right now at the moment of this, and I think I need to try to be in touch with that. The voices in the book, in a critic, sometimes that can become the loudest voice at the table. I think you need to get in touch with Volition and be like, why don’t we listen to kind of compassion for a bit now because, you know, we don’t wanna get rid of critic and can be quite helpful like last week, like 1 AM, you’ve not put the bins out, you know, I was like, oh fine, get a drink and put put the bins out at 1 AM. But in general, yeah, I mean don’t fall into that consuming drive to constantly better yourself, and you know you’re this person when you’re the person that has a to do list that’s never ending, You’re always saying I should, which is an anxious thought. I should be doing this, should be doing that, should be doing no.
Just stop. Like, you should be not shoulding. Put I shouldn’t be shoulding at the top of your should list, and then worry about how meta and weird that’s become. Yeah.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. Thank you. I was so aware that that time has gone by so so quickly. I guess because, you know, one of the sort of questions that somebody asks is how do you manage to be so articulate with your psychoeducation? Do you think that’s your teaching background that’s coming in there?
Joshua Fletcher
Definitely. And, I used to teach year 4s. So 889 8 to 9 year olds. So, if you enjoyed the book you have the reading age of an 8 to 9 year old. I’m just
Josephine Hughes
That is that I did enjoy it. And I read it on Audible. I listened to you on Audible. You’ve got a lovely speaking voice.
Joshua Fletcher
I think
Josephine Hughes
It was very well on Audible. You know, so But
Joshua Fletcher
Thank you. Yeah. No. I I it’s always been something I was good at, terrible at admin as a teacher, terrible at admin now, terrible at notes, terrible at lesson plans, alright at studying, good at essay writing, slower essay writing but they’re usually good essays but they take me forever. But one of my favourite things I like about myself, that’s a sentence I’ve been working on, did not really mean anything several years ago.
My favourite thing I like about myself is the ability to take loads of boring information and present it as something engaging and entertaining if need be.
Josephine Hughes
That really helps, I should think, with your I mean, with social media and with work working with clients and and writing the book as well. Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
Oh, thank you.
Josephine Hughes
Uh-huh. Well, thank you so much, Josh, for coming along. I’m just sort of aware that I don’t want to keep you for ages.
Joshua Fletcher
It’s alright.
Josephine Hughes
So, yeah. Thank you so much. I mean, lots of people have, sort of, written lots of questions. I think we’ve covered quite a few of them. So I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the show and obviously people will be really interested to hear all about you and, what’s the next thing?
So I shouldn’t really say that as we’ve just been talking about slowing down, but have you got I think you might have another book in the offing.
Joshua Fletcher
Yes. The publisher really liked the book. Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. It’s really nice to talk to other therapists as well.
Yeah. Really is. It’s nice. Yeah. The publisher liked the book.
They want a second one. I probably can do a similar format. I might keep the voices and just do 4 different.
Josephine Hughes
That’s 4 characters.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. Another 4 characters and talk about other subjects that perhaps need to be spoken about Yeah. With more antics from my personal life, which you will find in and how does that make you feel? Yeah dude, I’m still lucky doing some promotional stuff for this book song at the Bath literary festival this year. So if you’re in Bath, come say hello or throw fruit at me.
I don’t mind.
Josephine Hughes
We did have someone who said
Joshua Fletcher
Me and my 5 a day.
Josephine Hughes
And so we did have someone who said there’s any chance you’re coming up to Tenerife because obviously we live in Tenerife. So if you could find a book festival that’s happening in Tenerife, I know that one of our members would be very happy.
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. I’ll try and wrangle that with a publisher. They really want this over in Tenerife, you know, you know, pay for it for me. Yeah. So yeah, just doing little things like that and, yeah, I’ve started to think of the next book. Nothing, nothing, no pen to paper yet.
A copy. Yeah. Just still going with this one and reopening my practice more. I’ve only seen a couple of clients now, but I’m gonna see a few more and that’ll be nice.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. I was gonna say it must be balancing all these different things. Have you found that you’re doing fewer and fewer clients as you get more and more of this sort of work?
Joshua Fletcher
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve only seen 2 clients in the last few months. Obviously, it’s not fair to keep a client a case load when you are jumping around doing Times interviews and
Josephine Hughes
Yeah.
Joshua Fletcher
You know, whatever. It’s not fair on them, but the 2 clients I do are very flexible and there’s an understanding there which I really appreciate. Yeah. I’m definitely gonna do some more client work, probably a bit later in the year. I hit burnout burnout not not so long ago, and I’m just coming out of that.
Yeah. I’m gonna I’m doing more of that being in the world a bit as opposed to that drive stuff, and, yeah, and then and crack on, and then write the second book and completely forget all the advice that I gave myself.
Josephine Hughes
Well, thanks so much for coming on, Josh.
It’s been absolutely brilliant to meet you. And, so so great to get to know you a bit better. So thank you for coming on and thank you for the book. I really enjoyed it and I know that so many other therapists have enjoyed it too because it just is like I said, it’s picking let letting people see really about what’s behind the curtain and that’s reassuring to us all.
Joshua Fletcher
If you think you’re doing a bad job, read this.
Josephine Hughes
Yeah. Well, thanks so much anyway. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Do come and join my Facebook community, Good Enough Counsellors.
And for more information about how I can help you develop your private practice, please visit my website, josephinehughes.com. If you found this episode helpful, I’d love it if you could share it with a fellow therapist or leave a review on your podcast app. And in closing, I’d love to remind you that every single step you make gets you closer to your dream. I really believe you can do it.